Thursday, July 31, 2008

Can evolutionists answer this? —Dinger

When and why did evolution decide to punish women for having multiple partners?
Within the last few years (I don't know exactly when) scientists found a link between a womans reproduction system and her immune system.
The first time she has intercourse, the DNA is imprinted. after this when a mans DNA is injected, it is checked against the imprint. If it is the same, everything is ok. If it is different, the imprint is removed and the knew DNA is imprinted. This can only happen 2 times. Even if the 3 DNA is the same as the first, it still is the 3rd imprint. After this the immune system will attack the next 3 mens DNA, even if one is from a previous man. then the immune system will step down a level. I do not know what that means exactly, but I do know it means the woman can get sick easier, and recovers slower.
This link serves no purpose if evolution is true, and would in fact hinder a womans ability to have babies from different fathers if anything happened to the first one.

Additional Details

I did not find it on a site. I heard about it in a creation/evolution debate on TV.
Both sides admit is is real, but the evolution side refused to discuss it.
Sure you didn't change the channel mid debate? Because I think you're referring to DVD region codes, not women's reproductive systems. :)


Wednesday, July 30, 2008

LDS, how many members of the church has read a marvelous work and a wonder? —witnessofJesus

it was one of the 2 books sent to me by my uncles when he first taught me about the church. the other was the book of mormon.

do new converts still read this book. is it a classic. should it still be used?
I read it when I was an LDS missionary, seems like I enjoyed it. I just remember the conversation about how it's got to be either the Mormons or the Catholics, and that the Protestants haven't got a leg to stand on. I must have internalized that message, because after leaving Mormonism I never even considered joining another Christian faith.

Thursday, July 24, 2008

I'm running a test: what's you IQ and spiritual beliefs? —Radio

I'm a Mormon with an IQ of 113. And YOU?
Never taken a real IQ test, just the fake ones online. I recall getting a 138 and I think even a 143 once. My ACT score as a junior in high school was 31, if that helps.

I'm an ex-Mormon atheist now, but I know people who are smarter than me and are still Mormon. I just don't see it as a matter of intelligence personally. I think you'll get more interesting results if you ask people what their Meyers-Briggs personality type is. I'm INTP.

Temple endowed ex-mormons, what was your reaction to going through the temple the first time? —bogidu

Did your experience have anything to do with you falling away from the church? How did the experience affect your relationship with other church members?
I didn't find it that strange really. My first time through was after the blood oaths were removed, so no doubt that helped. I was mostly just confused by it all, and trusting that it would make more sense later.

You know, when you're absolutely convinced of something it doesn't really even occur to you to question whether this is what the temple ordinance ought to be like. My mindset was probably more like the first day of school or a new job--just trying to remember all the things I was supposed to do and say.

I do remember going home afterwards and standing in my new garments in front of the mirror and thinking, This is going to be on me for the rest of my life. It was not a comfortable feeling, even for a believer like me.

Wednesday, July 23, 2008

Those of you seeking for truth...Have you read the Book of Mormon? Why or Why not? —lightgiver

I ask this because I am a Mormon an find it strange that so many people I come in contact with are actually afraid to read it. For example, I was on a plane and sat next to a Baptist lady. We began discussing religion. I told her I could show her some new insights into her question in the Book of Mormon. I pulled it out, and couldn't believe what happened. She actually backed away, and said she didn't even want to touch it. As if it was evil or something. I wondered where she got this attitude from was it her minister? I have never heard another religion put down from the pulpit in my church and I was hurt by this, so I was wondering if this is how most other people feel too, that it is an evil book. I assure you it is just the opposite. I love the book.
I think it would be a mistake to assume that this Baptist woman believes in her church any less fervently than you believe in Mormonism. And since her church does not accept the BoM she naturally sees it as an affront to her faith. That's the nature of religious faith, whether you're Mormon or Baptist or Catholic.

If it's helpful, consider this: you and I are sitting on a plane and talking about the witnesses to the Book of Mormon. I say I could show you some new insights into who these witnesses were and what beliefs they held. Then I pull out "An Insider's View to Mormon Origins" and turn to chapter 6. (Keep in mind that I truly believe I'm helping you by showing you this.) Are you going to read it?

Maybe you would, but many a believer would not. It isn't comfortable having your most cherished beliefs challenged.

Oh and for what it's worth, I have read the Book of Mormon (maybe six times?) and I don't think it's evil. I just don't think it's an actual history of anything and don't find anything particularly valuable in its world view.
Book of Mormon - Bible - Truth? —David W
When you pray to God, to find out if he exists or not, would it be best to read the Bible / Book of Mormon first to know what your looking for? I've read passages where people pray to the lord and he speaks to them or does something wonderous. So how will i know i've received an answer from him?
Dude, what's the point? Is God going to tell you something different than he told all these other respondents? Once you buy into the notion that a spiritual feeling inside you is God himself telling you something, aren't you already a believer at that point? You can make anything you want be the truth that way.

Or you could spend an hour online and actually look at the evidence for Book of Mormon/Bible historicity. Try searching "Book of Abraham" or "global flood" and see where that gets you. But you do what you feel you need to. It's your life.
Why don't modern Mormon leaders have beards? —mormonium

LOL I think straightup answered it best: "Look at any big successful business and you won't find many beards." Why should LDS Inc. be any different? Sorry that was just too funny.

Just having fun with you all, it'd be weird if the Mormon leaders still had beards. I guess the Amish kept theirs though, huh? (Just watched Witness last night on AMC.)
Question about the 8 witnesses in the book of mormon? —campire

how were they chosen

before I forget was the book of Mormon already published before Joseph Smith chose the 11 witnesses
I'm not sure they were "chosen" exactly. Lucy Mack Smith talked about the experience, saying, "In a few days we were follow[ed] by Joseph, Oliver and the whitmers ... soon after they came they all that is the male part of the company repaired to a little grove." It was just all the men who were in the party at the time.

The testimony is published in the 1830 edition of the book, so this occurred before it was published. The testimony itself is undated and does not name the author. Martin Harris said publicly in 1838 that none of the witnesses saw or handled the plates physically. It would be foolish to read this document as rational empirical evidence of anything that occurred in physical reality.

"I saw them [the gold plates] just as distinctly as I see any thing around me, though at the time they were covered over with a cloth." —Martin Harris, interview by John A. Clark, 1828, qtd. in Early Mormon Documents by Dan Vogel, 2:270

Saturday, July 19, 2008

Why would the mormon church publicly admit it only contributed 60 million to charity? —Ubuntu_Is_Better
Soon after buying a BILLION dollar mall? That doesn't sound like a not for profit organization to me. Yes, only 60 Million. Have you ever calculated how much tithing money they bring in? Even with 30% of the members paying 10% of their wages, tithing alone brings in around 6 BILLION. So, 60 MILLION is pocket change for charity compared to what they're making.
bdancer05 wrote: "let this be an assignment for you. why don't you investigate it yourself and then let us know... thank you"

How would you suggest going about this research, bd? The LDS church does not disclose its finances like other churches do. So speculating is all anyone can do. During the Olympics in Salt Lake then-church president Gordon B. Hinckley was asked by a German reporter about this. Here's the relevant portion of the interview:

In my country, the ... we say the people's churches, the Protestants, the Catholics, they publish all their budgets, to all the public.

Yeah. Yeah.

Why is it impossible for your church?

Well, we simply think that the ... that information belongs to those who made the contribution, and not to the world. That's the only thing. Yes.

* * *

Funny, when I was a contributing member I still never saw that information.

Wednesday, July 16, 2008

Christians: Instead of mandatory prayer in schools, why not use grizzly bears? —The Mad Hatter

II Kings 2:23-24: "From there Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, some youths came out of the town and jeered at him. "Go on up, you baldhead!" they said "Go on up, you baldhead!" He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the LORD. Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the youths."

We've all been there. You're walking along minding your own business, when a gang of cocky young bastards start hurling abuse at you. Most of us would just keep walking but Elisha decides to take it one step further. Invoking the name of God he summons bears to come and claw the sh!t out of them.

Christians are constantly asking for prayer in schools to help get today's kids in line but I beg to differ. We need bears in schools. If every teacher had the power to summon a pair of child-maiming grizzly avengers, you can bet that schoolchildren nowadays would be the most well-behaved polite children ever! What do you think?
It's no laughing matter. One in five children online gets eaten by rabid bears.

Monday, July 14, 2008

Is this whole mormon stuff 4 real? all this stuff about Joseph Smith? —ladybling c
i had a couple of "mormon " church people came around my house preaching and stuff . but what they say is it really for real ?
For anyone who is seriously considering this, I hope you notice the card trick here. The LDS responders all say "don't take my word for it," but they *do* want you to take their word that you can somehow know whether Joseph Smith was a credible witness by praying.

The fact is truth doesn't always feel good. If you discovered your spouse had been cheating on you, that wouldn't feel good. Does that mean it didn't happen? Of course not.

Joseph Smith married 34 women. A third were already married to other men, and a third were teenagers. Helen Mar Kimball was only 14 when Joseph convinced her she could save herself and her entire family by marrying him. Does that make you feel good?

Yes, he's just a man and could make mistakes. But he's the man you're trusting when you join Mormonism. Personally I don't find any reason to trust him, from the evolving First Vision™ story to the anachronistic Book of Mormon to the totally fabricated Book of Abraham translation.

It's a demonstrable fraud. But if you listen to the missionaries and pray with faith and a desire to believe, I have no doubt you'll get your answer.

Sunday, July 13, 2008

How to change my religin to mormon? —jennifer r

hi! I was wondering if anyone knows how to become a mormon? My best freind is mormon & she told me some things that made alot of sense to me. Any advice would be appreciated.
is this a serious questin?

hi! I guess I'm wondering why you didn't just ask your freind. Enjoy your new religin.
Why do I get more abuse of Christians for been Mormon than I do of atheist? —campire

Whatever happened to respect thy neighbor and you have just as much as a chance of been wrong about god than the other two thousand other break away president churches.
I see that too, campire. It seems that the majority of Mormon detractors here on Y!A are Christians. I'm an ex-Mormon atheist so I'm actually interested in your particular religion, while most atheists are probably not. You have to understand, to someone who was never Mormon and does not subscribe to any supernatural beliefs your church must seem totally insane. They don't give it the time of day because they can't even relate to you. Disappearing gold plates? A book of ancient American history with cows and pigs and sheep? Horses and chariots?

Mormonism probably doesn't impact their lives much, unless they watch a lot of reality TV.
Do Native Americans appreciate the Mormon doctrine calling them ‘cursed by God’? —Seridee

I'm sure most are unaware of their "Lamanite" ancestry, and even those who are Mormon are likely in doubt now about their status. William Lobdell wrote an article about this in the LA Times two years ago, and began with this story:

From the time he was a child in Peru, the Mormon Church instilled in Jose A. Loayza the conviction that he and millions of other Native Americans were descended from a lost tribe of Israel that reached the New World more than 2,000 years ago.

"We were taught all the blessings of that Hebrew lineage belonged to us and that we were special people," said Loayza, now a Salt Lake City attorney. "It not only made me feel special, but it gave me a sense of transcendental identity, an identity with God."

A few years ago, Loayza said, his faith was shaken and his identity stripped away by DNA evidence showing that the ancestors of American natives came from Asia, not the Middle East.

"I’ve gone through stages," he said. "Absolutely denial. Utter amazement and surprise. Anger and bitterness."
See the full article below.


Saturday, July 12, 2008

I just got baptized in the Mormon church about a month ago and realize it is not true. What do I do now? —james

Has anyone had experience with this? There are a lot of beliefs that I don't agree with for example in Matthew 22 verse 24-32 it states that in verse 30 that for in the resurrection they neither marry nor are giving in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven. The Mormons believe that in order to get into the celestial kingdom you have to get married, then you will be with your wife in the celestial kingdom. If one has never married, then they cannot enter the celestial kingdom unless you have no opportunity to get married. For example is you are disabled or if no one wants to marry you. That is very subjective I’m my opinion.....what you don't want to marry that person?? I kind of feel dumb because I did not research it enough.
Whatever, james. You got baptized a Mormon a month ago? So then you happened across a New Testament verse and suddenly "knew" the Mormon interpretation was wrong? Christians bashing Mormons is one thing, Christians being dishonest in order to make some bizarre point--that's downright embarrassing. You haven't represented your Christian faith very well here, sir.

Wednesday, July 9, 2008

What is the proper way to tell a Mormon missionary that you are not interested? —Alyssa's mommy

There seems to be a lot of missionaries in my town and they frequently try to push their religion on me when I am out walking with my daughter. What is the proper way to tell them no? I don't want to be rude, but saying "I'm Catholic" doesn't seem to work, they still try to give me flyers and stuff.
Tell 'em, "Thanks, I'll just google it."

Make them tell you the internet is full of Satan's lies. Then you can say, "That's what the Scientologists say too." They love that.

Critics of Mormon church: Why do you care? —Mary Redshirt

What is it that keeps you obsessed? Trying to save Mormon souls? Trying to prove you're right? Just being mean?
Well it's not every day I get to agree with joshsybs.

joshsybs: "I love the answers that say if you eliminate the LDS faith you are closer to the truth.

Great reasoning guys, now you only need to find the truth out of 59,999 instead of 60,000 Christian denominations."
It's like watching those Living Hope Ministries videos. Some are really well done, for all but the last five minutes, when they try to make their own pitch to the audience, like "Now that we've shown Mormonism is bunk, let us introduce you to our own equally implausible beliefs."

Honestly I wish mainstream Christians would just let Mormons into their club. All the arguing is divisive and just makes both sides look petty. (I think it's a two-way street here, Mormons like to ridicule Christian beliefs too, particularly the Nicean Creed.)

But back to the question, I do care and I am at least a bit obsessed. I'm not trying to save Mormon souls or even prove I'm right. But leaving Mormonism is one thing, taking away the power it has and the negativity it unfortunately causes in my family situation is much harder.

I'll stop caring about Mormonism when the church convinces my wife that it's OK--really and truly OK--if loved ones believe different things. I'll stop caring when my mom stops hoping against hope for my return to the fold, because it actually hurts her that I don't believe. I'll stop caring when I no longer have to worry that my kids are being taught predefined gender roles and unhealthy views about "morality." And when they stop chanting that damn "Follow the Prophet" song. :)

What I'm saying is I agree that it's silly when religions fight about interpretations of Bible verses and who has the right to call themselves "Christian." But don't imagine that other critics don't have strong personal reasons for persisting. The LDS church is and will likely always be the biggest wedge in all my closest relationships. I'd love to see it implode, at least as far as my family is concerned. (Hope they keep the gym open for Wednesday night basketball though.)

Tuesday, July 8, 2008

Do you think the Mormon church will ever change their position on gay marriage? —Cody C

Yes, absolutely. There's a difference between this position and other Mormon oddities. Coffee doesn't have civil rights. When the U.S. government starts taking away tax-exempt status of discriminatory organizations, I guarantee there will be a new Manifesto from Salt Lake City. Fifty years later the prophet will be saying "It's behind us." Another fifty and they'll be saying how grateful they are that this church has never discriminated against gays or women.

"How grateful I am that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has from its beginnings stood strongly against racism in any of its malignant manifestations." —Alexander B. Morrison, "No More Strangers," Sept 2000 Ensign, p. 16

Sunday, July 6, 2008

Random Thoughts on July Ensign (Long) —circus watcher

Great summary, circus watcher. I likewise thumbed through it last night. Seriously, let's have two current apostles write life histories of two other current apostles? And the one about Eyring's "sacrifice" of a prominent position in Cali so he could continue on at Ricks a few more years? How big a sacrifice is that when your career goal is to be a general authority and President Kimball is calling to assure you you're on the right path?

circus watcher wrote:
Article titled Coming to know for Ourselves

If our faith is rooted in the sandy soil of reason and logic, it will be swept away by a rising tide driven by the escalating winds of opposition. A faith founded in Jesus Christ and on the rock of revelation will endure through the fiercest storms of life

I love the phrase sandy soil of reason and logic. Good use of adjectives to slur reason and logic.

OK, this was the article that got the biggest eye roll from me. Seriously, how do members read that line, "the sandy soil of reason and logic," and not have a wtf moment?

First the person would challenge my beliefs with a doctrinal question. I often answered, “I don’t know, but I will find out what the Church teaches on the subject.”

Here's what bugged me about that: the implication is that church critics actually give a rat's ass about doctrines. Ballard does the same thing in his article, saying we don't want outsiders "defining us." Please. The clueless members come away with the impression that all of us exmos are out there trying to convince people that Mormons believe there are actually four degrees of glory or something. I'm not interested in defining your beliefs, Mr. Ballard. I'm saying Joseph Smith pulled them out of his ass.

Friday, July 4, 2008

How do you feel about the Mormons use of the term ‘anti-Mormon’? —Desiree

I think all the responders who gave the dictionary definition of "anti" have missed the point. Actually two points.

First, note that the label is "anti-Mormon" and not "anti-Mormonism." Mormons are people; Mormonism is a collection of ideas and beliefs. I don't hate people for being Mormon, in fact the vast majority of people I care about on the planet are Mormon. But I have no particular fondness for their beliefs, hence it would be fair to say I am anti-Mormonism.

The second point is that the label itself is pejorative and triggers a specific response in the Mormon mindset. Namely, it works as an ad hominem attack that allows the believer to automatically discount whatever the "anti-Mormon" has said. Language and labels are powerful things, and the LDS church is very adept at using them to protect itself from critical examination by members.

That's another topic all by itself, but as a simple example, I think most Mormons would agree with this statement:

"I believe that the gospel encompasses all truth and that we should seek to learn all that we can while here on earth."

Several LDS scripture verses talk about gaining wisdom, intelligence, knowledge of the world around us, and so on. But I think most Mormons would also agree with this statement:

"I believe that we should strive daily to build our testimonies against the temptations of the adversary, and avoid anti-Mormon literature as you would the plague."

See, in every other area of study we're encouraged to gather evidence, weigh alternatives, and draw conclusions. But the church itself gets a free pass. "No need to look too closely here," it seems to be saying, "just trust us. Have faith." And that, my friends, is exactly why you should check it out. Not just by asking "the source," but also looking at disciplines that cross paths with Mormon beliefs, like linguistics or archeology. And yes, by asking those who are "anti-Mormonism" too, and trying your darndest to actually hear what they're saying.
False promises... —OnePartPerBillion

At the moment I am trying to figure out how my sister deals with it. TBM family, 5 kids, and a husband out of the country and away from the family earning a paltry income while family resides in low-income housing. He is TBM also. She's got too feel lied to I'd think. All those promises that going along with the program and popping out the kiddies will be the greatest good... and you will be happy. But then, once you are locked in it is all about enduring to the end and happiness won't come until you DIE (and even then its no guarantee.) Goddess I am glad I escaped before getting so locked into the program but it tears me up to see what my sister is going through.


truly confused wrote:
What is wrong with people that they think this is ok? They don't plan on staying here so it isn't like they will pay taxes back into the state here. Yet, the church tells them to have babies so they keep on doing it.

Amen. I have seen that in every Mormon ward I've been in. This religion seriously impairs people's ability to make reasoned choices. All the big ones are laid out for you and are non-negotiable. The others depend on some weird notion of getting an emotional confirmation while at the same time ensuring it wasn't you feeling good about the decision but actually a deity living in the pleasure center of your brain.

And then of course they can never learn from mistakes either, because if it didn't work out it was a trial. "I don't know why God wanted me to make this move, but I trust that He has a purpose."

Thursday, July 3, 2008

Anti-mormons, can you relate to this Book of Mormon character's standpoint? —CLRK

"I do not teach the foolish traditions of your fathers, and... I do not teach this people to bind themselves down under the foolish ordinances and performances which are laid down by ancient priests, to usurp power and authority over them, to keep them in ignorance, that they may not lift up their heads, but be brought down according to thy words. Ye say that this people is a free people. Behold, I say they are in bondage. ..."
Yes, I can relate to the agnostic Korihor. Only about 12% of the population belonged to a church in Joseph Smith's day, and mock conversations between preachers and these "anti-Christs" were a popular rhetorical device, published in pamphlets in evangelical protestantism at the time.

B. H. Roberts noted the similarity in the stories of Sherem and Korihor, supposedly 400 years apart and written by different authors. Roberts wrote: "The two Anti-Christs--Sherem and Korihor--the stories of their belief and the treatment of them, how alike they are! ... They are all of one breed and brand; so nearly alike that one mind is the author of them, and that a young and undeveloped, but piously inclined mind. The evidence I sorrowfully submit, points to Joseph Smith as their creator."

I guess I don't know why you're asking the question. It doesn't seem particularly noteworthy to me that Joseph was familiar with the arguments of the various sects and non-religionists of the time.

See Grant Palmer, "An Insider's View of Mormon Origins," p. 125-30.
major guilt trip —miracle

Long talk with DH last night. He kept asking why I am so happy and comfortable with myself--I have told him more than once that the church stifled who I was and now that I am free I feel whole. Well, that started a tirade by him regarding our kids. A few months ago I did tell my oldest some of what I learned about the BoA and JS. I also told him dad may not be happy he knew that, well, turns out, ds talked to DH a little. DH was quite upset with me, accused me of trying to turn the kids against him and the church, so, did I go too far? Should I not tell my kids why? Should I let them continue to be indoctrinated? DH claims the info is too heavy and they can't understand it, he said that I don't understand it (this is his mo, I am spritually ignorant where he, DH, has a better understanding of all things mormon). I am vascillating between "I shouldn't overwhelm the kids with all this" and "if I wait, it will be too late for them." ... I also asked DH what kind of church has to hide information, that it might be too overwelming to young ears, he didn't answer, he just accused me of hurting the kids, basically saying "should we let our kids watch us have sex since they need to know?" Very frustrating. I hate thinking I have hurt my kids by telling them some stuff, I hate that it has been hard for them to see DH and I go opposite directions. Is there no chance for peace and harmony in a mixed marriage?
You certainly haven't harmed your kids. They're not invested in church beliefs the way adults are. It hasn't cost them anything, and they're too young to have any sense of their own mortality so they're not likely to worry about the what-happens-when-we-die stuff. The only harm I see is in your relationship with your spouse.

As difficult as it may be, I think you have to communicate with each other about how you're going to approach religious beliefs with the kids. "Dad believes this, and mom believes this, and it's OK that we're different." Ideally you might even have these conversations when the spouse is in the room, so it doesn't look like you're trying to demean the other's views. And I would not tell kids they have to choose.

Wednesday, July 2, 2008

The same thing we do every night —ElGuapo

"Gee Brain, what do you want to do tonight?"

"The same thing we do every night, Pinky. Try to take over the world."

Am I the only one who always thinks of The Brain when I visit the PostMo board? I don't know why the rest of you come here, but for me it really is this simple. I want to bring down this church. I want to take away the power it has over my life and my closest relationships.

I want to empower others with the courage and the words to articulate what's wrong with Mormonism. I want my kids to grow up in a healthy environment, where people behave rationally and critical thinking is encouraged. I want to take away the veneer of sacredness and the automatic respect that is afforded religious ideas, no matter how nutty or dysfunctional.

I want my family back and my friends back. I want them to see people in living color, to pick their own path in life, to spend their time as they choose. To drop all the judgmental crap, the hypersensitivity to swearing, coffee, "immoral" media, and on and on. To save their tithing money, their temple nights, and the other half of their weekends.

I want this church out of my life ... so here I am, night after night. How about you?

Tuesday, July 1, 2008

Church consolidates European Areas —averagejoe

Maybe someoene brought this up and I missed it but from Aug 1st the Europe West & Europe East Areas are being merged. This means that in the last ten years have gone from three areas, down to one.

We all knew that the church has been shinking in Europe, Monson admitted it once at a German conference I was at. I think this re-organisation is indactive of a real malaise. Growing businesses don't consolidate their structures. Businesses in trouble do.

I notice too that they've done the same thing in Australia, I don't know much about the situation there but I'm guessing it must be similar.

Link to press release:

Equality wrote:
I prophesy that you will see a lot more quoting of 1 Nephi 14:12:

12 And it came to pass that I beheld the church of the Lamb of God, and its numbers were few, because of the wickedness and abominations of the whore who sat upon many waters; nevertheless, I beheld that the church of the Lamb, who were the saints of God, were also upon all the face of the earth; and their dominions upon the face of the earth were small, because of the wickedness of the great whore whom I saw.

The last time I heard that verse quoted, I was a TBM visiting the Church of Christ (Temple Lot) visitors center in Missouri. Our guide was none other than the prophet himself, who wrote revelations in his journal and doubled as the visitors center tour guide. I'm sorry I don't remember his name.