Tuesday, July 25, 2006

WHO, WHERE, WHEN ,WHY and HOW of BoM, Anti mo's explain yourselves —Her Amun
Since the we "TBM"s are in agreement as to the who what where and why of BoM translation and the plates. Could the non-mo's please give us their account of the who, what were and why of the BoM translation and gold plates?
I hope what's obvious here, Her Amun, is that the non-mo's don't have an account of who, what, where, and why. Some speculate and conjecture about what may have happened, but I've never met an exmo who left the church because they gained a testimony of the Spalding theory, the Golden Pot theory, or any other. In most cases I think the conclusion is that I don't need to know how it happened, I just don't believe it happened like Joseph said.

Wednesday, July 19, 2006

Unfinding Christ, How do people do it? —hondo
I am reading a bloody fascinating book entitled, "God the Evidence:The Reconciliation of faith and reason in a post-secular world" by Dr. Patrick Glynn. He basically argues how he was atheistic growing up and then learned the hows and the why's of atheism as he completed his studies at Harvard, including a PH.D. He says he found God after various life experiences and presents his arguments against atheism and thats as far as I got. I can see how people "find God", my question is how do you go the other way? How you unfind Christ? If you found something how do you lose it and does losing Christ mean he was never there in the first place?
QUOTE (hondo @ Jul 17 2006, 06:40 PM)
If I lose faith or unfind something does that equal I had never really it in the first place? Example If I found ten bucks and then through whatever experience decided I never did find it does that mean that ten bucks was imaginary or just some weird event that I decided never happened. Do people say to themselves that they never really believed in Christ or that there is no Christ-but How do you find him and then decide you lost him?

You're not talking about finding a tangible thing here, are you? When you say "finding Christ," aren't you referring to some internal acknowledgment of your own belief in what you've been taught about Christ? It's not like finding ten bucks. Find a less ambiguous verb and I suspect you'll have your answer. It seems to me you're just asking, "How do people change their minds about Christ?" Well, they just do. Is there something more I'm missing?

Tuesday, July 11, 2006

Creation vs. Taxonomy, Relevance of biological classification —ElGuapo

Just sharing a random thought here. If one does not believe in the common descent of living things, if we instead believe God independently created each creature, then scientific classification is kind of meaningless, isn't it? I mean, we speak of mammoths and elephants as being closely related, but if each was brought to earth separately, that "relationship" is nothing more than coincidental.

I'm thinking here of statements from some early church leaders. B. H. Roberts said that each life form was

QUOTE (from The Gospel and Man's Relationship to Deity)
brought from some other and older sphere, with power to propagate their kind. [Eventually] the changed conditions of the earth became unfavorable to them [and] they became extinct and were replaced by other species of a higher type.

Similarly, Joseph Smith in the History of the Church talks about "beasts which had lived on another planet and not ours" (HC 5:324), "strange beasts of which we have no conception" (HC 5:343).

Parley P. Pratt likewise seemed to believe these creatures were brought from another sphere:

QUOTE (from The Key to Theology)
When lo! from yonder world is transferred every species of animal life. Male and female, they come, with blessings on their heads.

The same kind of ideas pertain to the plant kingdom. (There's that taxonomy creeping in again.) Brigham Young said that Adam

QUOTE (from JD 1:50)
arranged in their order the herbs of the field, the trees, the apple, the peach, the plum, the pear, and every other fruit that is desirable and good for man; the seed was brought from another sphere, and planted in this earth.

Of course, however you believe each species has arrived at where it is today, classification is still useful as a descriptive tool. But for those who believe in a literal creation of independent species as referenced above, do you still think of different species as being somehow related? Are tigers and lions and bears and fishes all equally related in your view?

Monday, July 10, 2006

What tribe are you from? Restoration of the 12 tribes —ElGuapo

OK, so I know everyone is from Ephraim. But once in a while you hear of someone having a different lineage in their patriarchal blessing. You get some Manasseh, some Benjamin. On my mission in Korea a companion once told me (who knows where he heard this) that Korean members' blessings generally say they're from the tribe of Dan.

Well, I was just gonna ask the question, but then for kicks I went ahead and set up a Frappr map. If you've never used that site before, it's just an online map where you can mark your location. You do not have to give out any IRL information (just use your FAIR username as your name there). You will have to enter a real email address, but you could use a throw-away address. That's just for registration, the address isn't viewable publicly.

Let's see if we get any non-Ephraimites. But please, Ephraim, stand up and be counted. (And please, everyone, don't ruin the fun by pretending to be from Issachar or something.)

12 Tribes map


* * *

All Ephraim so far it looks like. By the way, I forgot to mention that location info is only viewable to others at the zip code level, even if you pinpoint your actual address.

And "Guapititos?" What's that about?

QUOTE (Doctor Steuss @ Jul 10 2006, 12:58 PM)
This site has a couple of stories about different people, their ancestry, and their tribe. If you find it trustworthy, you could probably plug in a couple of the different tribe stories and where the people are from:

Beyond Arsareth: The Twelve Tribes of Israel Today

Interesting reading, Doctor Steuss, thanks. Sounds like some lineage declarations are not so clear--"tribe of Joseph," "lineage of Abraham," "mostly Asher."

QUOTE (Tarski @ Jul 10 2006, 01:52 PM)
QUOTE (Antley @ Jul 10 2006, 01:48 PM)
QUOTE (Tarski @ Jul 10 2006, 02:38 PM)
Given how populations interbreed and how many g-g-g-g-g-g- great grandparents we each have, I don't see how this being from a particular tribe thing can even make any real literal sense.

To the extent that the ideas surrounding the so called Tribes of Israel are actual, I would say I likely have ancestors in every single tribe and so do you all.

I think most LDS are well aware of that.

Ten to one odds that Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were not aware of it.

QUOTE (Number 9 @ Jul 10 2006, 03:21 PM)
To confirm your Korea/Dan theory - my niece is Korean, and she is from Dan.

That's great, Number 9. Did you also notice in the link Doctor Steuss provided they mention full-blooded Irish members tend to be from Dan as well?

(sailgirl7 @ Jul 10 2006, 07:31 PM)
I'm part Korean and I'm from Ephraim- same as my Dad and full Korean Grandma.

Sunday, July 2, 2006

Word of Wisdom, for non LDS and Exmos —elect lady

We all know the LDS have the Word of Wisdom. I am not here to criticize it, it makes sense to me. I was just curious if any of the non or ex LDS here avoid alcohol, tobacco, or certain kinds of foods, as a matter of religious practice.

Also, what is your take on the LDS Word of Wisdom? Is drinking alcohol a sin? What about tobacco? Etc....
QUOTE (sob76 @ Jun 30 2006, 11:59 PM)
yes, I consider drunkeness a sin. But "Wine that makes the heart glad" as the psalmist call it is ok.

Loved this! Reminds me of the famous congressman response when asked, "Where do you stand on whiskey?"

If, when you say whiskey you mean the Devil's brew, the poison scourge, the bloody monster that defiles innocence, dethrones reason, destroys the home, creates misery and poverty . . . takes the bread from the mouths of little children; if you mean the evil drink that topples the Christian man and woman from the pinnacles of righteous, gracious living into the bottomless pit of degradation and despair, shame and helplessness and hopelessness, then certainly I am against it with all of my power.

But, if, when you say whiskey, you mean the oil of conversation, the philosophic wine, the ale that is consumed when good fellows get together, that puts a song in their hearts and laughter on their lips and the warm glow of contentment in their eyes; if you mean Christmas cheer; if you mean the stimulating drink that puts the spring in the old gentleman's step on a frosty morning; if you mean the drink that enables a man to magnify his joy and his happiness and to forget, if only for a little while, life's great tragedies, and the heartbreaks and sorrows; if you mean that drink, the sale of which pours into our treasuries untold millions of dollars, which are used to provide tender care for our little crippled children, our blind, our deaf, our dumb, our pitiful aged and infirm, to build highways, hospitals, and schools, then certainly I am in favor of it.

--author unknown, told in the early 1960s