Digital Plates

Shaking off the dust

2011-12-04T00:40:00.008-07:00

Well it's been a while since I've posted. Looking around I see that Mormon leaders have not yet announced a press conference to concede that their truth claims really don't seem at all plausible and therefore members should consider their options for how to spend the remainder of their lives. So it seems I still need a place to vent about the strange world I inhabit and all the continual harm this church does to otherwise wonderful people and relationships.

Here's a recent sampling. On someone asks,

Why do mormons not give their children the right to choose religions?

My response:

Why don't you give your children the right to stand at the edge of a cliff? Mormons believe theirs is the one true church, and the only path to making their family "eternal." Nothing matters more to them, nothing else matters at all really if they're true believers. And yet at the same time they really need for these children to feel they own that choice to remain Mormon.

That's why you always see parents announcing that their 8-year-old has "chosen" to be baptized. Those always crack me up, like the kid has just completed a rigorous study of all possible belief systems, narrowed it down to either Mormonism or Jainism, tried each for a while, and Mormonism (the Brighamite version) finally won out.

Delusional? Yes. But within that framework the masked coercion makes perfect sense.

The fear of outside information runs deep in Mormonism. Mormons will read non-Mormon fiction, watch non-Mormon entertainment or whatever, but if a subject touches in any way on matters of faith, then only Mormon sources will do. And since Mormonism's correlated explanation of Jesus' life and mission is so unambiguous and clear, so is their understanding of it. There's no nuance, no curiosity about, say, the various interpretations of the different New Testament authors. No recognition of the contribution of Paul to Jesus' legacy. It all just boils down to how to give your life to the Mormon church from the earliest age until death, and then how to ensure your funeral is used as a conversion tool for others.

This church is a cancer. I want to see it dealt with, and I want to help people who are trying to figure out how to live outside of it. A woman who posted occasionally on PostMormon.org ended her life recently, a closet nonbeliever in Boise who lost hope for any kind of happiness or acceptance. There are consequences to maintaining lies about the world we live in, even comforting ones.

What lies beneath

2011-02-25T00:25:00.003-07:00

How to dismiss Mormon theology in a philosophical/intellectual way? —AR

What lies beneath every Mormon "testimony" is something called Moroni's promise: the idea that if you pray to know if Mormonism's truth claims are real, you will feel a positive reassurance in your heart that they are. Nevermind the fact that lots of people don't immediately feel any such thing, and kids raised Mormon actually work actively to gain this testimony (somehow without ever entertaining the possibility that the promise therefore failed).

So yeah, even ignoring the "heads I win, tails you lose" approach Mormons take to Moroni's promise, the real philosophical problem is the promise itself. WHO SAYS that a good feeling about the book means it's true? Well, the book itself says so. You'd think this would cause Mormons to doubt the source of these "divine" confirmations in their heads, but it never does. The whole basis of Mormons' faith is a simple confidence trick.

The cost of discipleship

2010-07-20T21:27:00.002-06:00

How do I tell my mom I want to be Mormon? —linda

Ive already prayed about the book of mormon and i know it to be true, i have a great testimony of the church. My mom is convinced the church is weird and somewhat of a cult. But I know the truth and I dont kow how to tell her I love going to church and I love the truth in it? How do I tell her I want to take the missionary lessons? And what if she says no?

I'm sorry, but you can't make things true just by wishing it were so. It's your life so do what you like, but joining the Mormon church is not worth whatever social benefits you might expect to come from it. Your Mormon friends are not trying to lead you astray, but somehow they haven't got the message that the stuff you read in the Book of Mormon could not possibly be real ancient American history. It's a 180-year-old scam that only survives because people who've given their lives to it are afraid to check it out and admit they've been boondoggled.

Source(s):
"It is morally as bad not to care whether a thing is true or not, so long as it makes you feel good, as it is not to care how you got your money as long as you have got it." —Edmund Way Teale

Deconstructing Mormonism

2010-07-18T21:16:00.003-06:00

Can anybody tell me what they know about mormon history? —brew

im ex mormon only now digging into mormon history. particularly i am concerned with joseph smith i find him very interesting. you may find it interesting that only after losing interest in the church, do i find interest in its beginnings. let me tell you, there is great effort within the church to keep people ignorant of certain historical facts while emphasize certain others, and admonishing youth for exploring "the devils literature" ect .....

I agree that the church's history becomes more interesting once you take the blinders off. I don't think the typical church member or leader tries to keep people ignorant of its unfiltered history. They either believe Boyd K. Packer's idea that not all things that are true are useful, or in many cases they probably just don't know what they don't know. But the church institution itself certainly has developed a pattern of suppressing, cherry picking, or just plain rewriting its history. You'd have to have a pretty narrow definition of lying to say that the church is honest about its beginnings.

And maybe that's part of what makes Mormon history so interesting—the fact that for so long the church succeeded in controlling the message and marginalizing critics in the eyes of the faithful. I think what happens over a generation or two of faith-promoting storytelling is that the stories become entrenched, some people become heroic and legendary, while others become cautionary tales.

Then you get someone like Fawn Brodie who comes along and writes (pretty sympathetically actually) about Joseph Smith but without deference to the powers that be, and it's no wonder there was an uproar over her biography. Another biography that I think is of equal caliber is "Mormon Enigma" by Newell and Avery. That one's actually about Emma Smith, but at least the first half of the book up until Joseph's death is very relevant to your search I think.

Please add a comment if there are specific areas of church history you're interested in, and I'm sure I or others can make some good recommendations.

Credulity preparedness

2010-07-17T21:09:00.001-06:00

Why are some people prepared to read the Book of Mormon and others not prepared? —John quill Quill

Why are some people prepared to learn about evolution? Prepared to fight for marriage equality even when it doesn't help them personally? The wording of your question betrays your ignorance. By the way I've read the book cover to cover. It's a joke.

Garden variety religion

2010-07-16T20:37:00.000-06:00

So the Book of Mormon can't be true because we believe Adam was a real person? —Tom

Lots of people don't believe humans evolved from apes.

I fail to see the logic in saying that just because we believe the story of the Garden of Eden was a historical event, this automatically means Mormonism is false.

I wish you would say more about how you see the Garden of Eden story fitting in with what we know about the world today. It's a fable, Tom, written before people had discovered germs, or atoms, or of course DNA. And just to clarify, we haven't "evolved from" apes. We evolved from earlier versions of hominids, who would be classified as primates just like us.

Anyway, I take you to mean that belief in Adam and Eve must be rational because lots of people believe it. Lots of people also believe in UFOs. That's not evidence of anything except the credulity of the average person.

And finally, the Garden of Eden story could be absolutely true and it would still be ridiculously obvious that the Book of Mormon is contrived. Do you know anything about ancient Native Americans that you didn't learn in Sunday school? What did they eat? What animals did they have? What technology? What about their language and writing? Just pick one subject, ANY SUBJECT!, and see if what you learn looks remotely like the history you read in the Book of Mormon. I'm sure it doesn't seem like it now, and you probably think I'm just being a jerk, but the day you finally realize that Joseph Smith made the whole thing up will be the best day of your life. You're welcome. :)

@Adam: Don't keep us in suspense. What's the evidence you see that makes you think the BoM is literal history? So the more you learn about ancient Americans' agriculture, technology, language, etc., the more it looks like 3 Nephi 3:22? Have you contacted National Geographic to let them know?

The numbers game

2010-06-11T00:14:00.003-06:00

What would be the total membership of the lds mormon church if no-one had ever removed their name or been exed? —jacarre

The reported numbers would probably be the same. For starters, I don't think there are nearly the number of resignations that some ex-Mormon sites estimate. There's a commonly cited source that puts the number of resignations at around 100,000 annually, but my hunch is it's far fewer, maybe a few thousand. Just anecdotally, I personally know dozens of people who were baptized Mormon but no longer believe, practice, or self-identify as Mormon. Of all those, how many have actually formally resigned? I think two, including myself.

Again, it's just a hunch and only the church really knows, but I think the resignation thing is mostly a web phenomenon. People who participate in ex-Mormon communities online are far more likely to send a letter to the church, for one thing because they know they can. Most people just move on or "go inactive." And yes, I agree that there are a ton of inactive Mormons who actually do still believe, so I could care less if the church continues counting these people to make their numbers look better. But the bottom line is the church's bottom line cannot be reconciled. The number of people that drop off the totals each year isn't nearly enough even to account for the death rate in a population that size.

In summary, they may or may not be removing ex-members like me from their numbers. They're certainly removing members who are known to be deceased. But there's a huge number of once-baptized "Mormons" out there who the church is not in contact with, and these folks are assumed (if online sources can be believed) to be alive until age 110. Hence the inflated total membership numbers. And of course if they were to report actual weekly meeting attendance, or number of full tithe payers, then the remaining active members out there would really know how large a crowd they're part of.

gintzer wrote: "They don't hide the #s, they announce them at General Conference and print them in the Ensign magazine every year."

The numbers they share in General Conference are almost completely meaningless, and are irreconcilable with reality. You know, sort of like the story of the Jaredite barges.

Will the real Nephi please stand up?

2010-05-02T15:12:00.004-06:00

Was there really a person named Nephi who actually lived in the Book of Mormon? —LIFE

Yes, there's a Nephi in the Book of Mormon. More than one actually. Are you asking whether the book itself is historical and not something cobbled together by Joseph Smith and perhaps others? That's an obvious no. None of the purported history from the Book of Mormon looks remotely like what we know about ancient America today. It fails every test one could throw at it—agricultural, linguistic, technological, metallurgical, cultural, you name it. Every test, that is, except the one the Mormon responders here keep pushing: that you should ignore all contradictory evidence and pray for a good feeling about the book. Feeling is knowing. Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.

Anyway, the name you asked about, Nephi, is not in the King James Bible like many of the other Book of Mormon names. It is, however, in the Apocrypha, which was part of the Smith family Bible. If it were the name of an ancient Hebrew, being translated into English in 1830, you'd think the spelling would be phonetic, like Nefi. Then again, you'd think all of the thees and thous and thus sayeths would have no place in a modern translation either. Seriously, how obvious does it have to be?

Source(s):

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nephi#cite_…

"The book seems to be merely a prosy detail of imaginary history, with the Old Testament for a model; followed by a tedious plagiarism of the New Testament. The author labored to give his words and phrases the quaint, old-fashioned sound and structure of our King James's translation of the Scriptures; and the result is a mongrel—half modern glibness, and half ancient simplicity and gravity. The latter is awkward and constrained; the former natural, but grotesque by the contrast. Whenever he found his speech growing too modern—which was about every sentence or two—he ladled in a few such Scriptural phrases as 'exceeding sore,' 'and it came to pass,' etc., and made things satisfactory again. 'And it came to pass' was his pet. If he had left that out, his Bible would have been only a pamphlet." —Mark Twain, Roughing It

Doubting, No Greater Sin

2010-04-13T09:23:00.006-06:00

When Mormons mention the outer darkness, what does that mean? —Dandaman

Sort of like Hell? Is there Hell in your beliefs?

There's not really a hell in Mormon doctrine. Everyone gets saved, except the sons of perdition. The closest Mormon equivalent to hell is a temporary place called "spirit prison." That's where bad people go when they die, until they've adequately suffered for all their unrepented misdeeds. Thieves, abusers, violent criminals, they'll all find their way to Mormon paradise eventually.

Not so for the real bad guys, though—the ones who used to know the church was true, who had a testimony, went through the temple, served in callings, and then denied the faith. No redemption for those guys. That's right, that guy who broke into a house and tried to kill a little girl with a hammer: saved. Ex-Mormons like me: not so lucky.

So beware all you faithful Mormons, you could be one questioning thought away from outer darkness. It's not a cult, just the way God rolls. He's mysterious like that.

Source(s):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult_checkl…

Blinded by the subtle craftiness of email

2010-04-11T20:17:00.002-06:00

Mormon question about the website? —Artisticat

Every time I go there to request a bible, or request someone come visit me, they say something about an incorrect e-mail. Anyone else have this problem? I'd like to go back to church, but it's hard with our sleeping schedule, so I might ask for bible study visits or something. I was baptized at 14.

Others will answer you better, but I just have to say I love this question. What you didn't know is that when you were 14 you were one of the 200,000 or so converts that year that made all the other active, tithe-paying Mormons feel better about their church. The stone clunks forth. Well at least you solved their retention problem. Somebody needs to look into this email glitch so the 10 million lost Mormons out there can reconnect with their faith.

Frequently Avoided Questions

2010-04-02T10:27:00.007-06:00

JW's and Mormons, What do you believe about evolution? —Chris the 4th

There's no consensus view on evolution in Mormonism. The faith's leaders have grown increasingly reluctant over the decades to make statements that may later be shown false where faith and science intersect. In my experience I've found most Mormons are antagonistic toward evolutionary theory in general, but aren't quite willing to repudiate it. It's something that—like molecular genetics, homosexuality, and the Book of Abraham—they wish would just go away.

Sunnyrains96 wrote: "Personally, as an LDS member, I keep an open mind. I believe that I was created in the image of my Father, but I also know that there's a lot of history of the world that wasn't recorded. I think that there probably was some evolution involved somewhere, but I wouldn't dare say where or how. I like to think that science and religion often are arguing two sides to the same story and if people on both sides could drop their defenses for just a moment they would see that both sides can be right at the same time."

I'd say the above response is pretty indicative of what most Mormons believe. And something tells me she's not very interested in learning more about evolution, unless it's a Mormon source offering reassurance that somehow it all works out in the end and that most importantly, "the church is still true."

Following Satan's trail to the truth

2010-02-25T00:09:00.002-07:00

Why do people hate the LDS church? I see people picketing the Mormon temples? —Ethan M

but rarely if ever any other church. Why is that?

Most people don't go looking for a fight with a church. If you've been raised Mormon then you've probably been told all your life about the "enemies of the Church" and how Satan works through these people to try to stop Mormonism somehow. I totally get the idea that this persecution means Mormonism must be all it claims to be (or else why is Satan fighting so hard to stop it, right?). But you might do well to consider something for a moment.

What if Mormonism wasn't all it claims to be? What if people go to such efforts to stand up to it because it is somehow impacting them negatively? If that were so, wouldn't the church still claim it was being persecuted because it is True™? In other words, once you accept the proposition that the more people say we're wrong the more it proves we're right, you're caught in a positive feedback loop. That's fine if you're only interested in protecting your belief from contradictions, but don't kid yourself that it's evidence of anything. I'm sure the Flat Earth Society and the Holocaust deniers use similar logic to defend their views.

Mormonism product review

2010-01-25T00:21:00.005-07:00

What are pros and cons of the mormon religion? —Ricky M.

NO HATE. I just want both sides of the story.

It's like this. If everyone you care about is Mormon; if the pre-scripted life that Mormonism advocates suits you; and if you have no reason to doubt the veracity of its truth claims—then Mormonism is absolutely wonderful. Really, I think it is. Mormonism takes a big, inscrutable world and makes it small and understandable. There's a purpose, and a plan. And you're loved. And those you love are never lost. You have a foolproof method for making optimum decisions. You have a community and solidarity. You are needed. And best of all, you never even have to consider your own mortality. Because of course death isn't really death. You, yourself, this individual with your DNA, lived before and will go on living after mortal life ends. How cool is that?

As for the cons, see above. If anyone you care about is not Mormon, or heaven forbid has rejected it for any reason, you're left feeling wounded. What if they don't make it? What if your eternal family is broken up? What if you didn't do enough to help them? What if you don't have anything to talk about that isn't wrapped up in church happenings?

I'm being a little facecious there, but there's a sinister side to this too. What if it's a spouse who leaves the faith? Do you divorce? There's a story like this every day on the ex-Mormon boards. What if it's a child who strays? Do you welcome them to family gatherings? Do you trust them? Do you still pay for their college? What if they're gay? Will your child be one of Utah's male teen suicides? Now that's sobering. (A little Mormon joke there.)

And speaking of being gay, that's one of many traits that might make the Mormon lifestyle unsuitable for some. Me, I liked scouts, church, being a missionary. I wanted to get married and have kids. Enjoyed teaching lessons, didn't hate being a priesthood leader. But it's not for everyone. Maybe it works for you, and maybe that's all that matters.

Finally, the whole thing can only work if you really truly believe in it. Not such a difficult proposition forty years ago, like say when the Joseph Smith papyri were rediscovered and translated. We didn't have google then, or discussion boards full of informed people outside the faith community. If you like the idea of the world I described above and want to be a Mormon, I wish you the best. But you should probably tread carefully here on the worldwide web, because for some reason all that ridiculous anti-Mormon literature seems to convince some people that Joseph Smith just made things up as he went along. Like polygamy, and temple rituals, and the Kirtland Safety Society. Or the Book of Abraham.

I Yam What I Yam

2009-12-17T19:53:00.002-07:00

Does belonging to the lds mormon religion make people happy? —Zeezrom

Now that's a good question. I think the short answer is that no one could ever really say definitively, because we don't get to live our lives out two different ways and compare the results. But anecdotally at least I can tell you that when I was Mormon I, like most believers, did attribute my happiness to my knowledge of gospel principles. Take that away, and I think in general I'm neither more nor less happy than I was before. Your mileage may vary.

The funny thing about that is I can see Mormons reading this and thinking I'm either lying or deceiving myself, because surely I must have been happier as a Mormon—unless I wasn't really living my religion, in other words unless I was sinning. I'll come back to that aspect of Mormonism, but on the flipside I can also see other ex-Mormons reading this and thinking, "What do you mean you're not happier now?!!"

It turns out for most of us that happiness is a pretty nebulous concept, and humans are not very good at either remembering past or predicting future happiness. What we are good at is justifying whatever decisions we happen to have made by telling ourselves it turned out for the best. So Mormons are inclined to say things in testimony meeting like, "I don't know where I'd be without the church," like they'd be awful people if it weren't for the three hours they sit in church every week. And ex-Mormons are probably just as likely to feel that their lives are immeasurably deeper and richer without the blinders on. I tend to agree with the ex-Mormons there, which probably just means I'm a normal self-justifying human.

My point is not to say that happiness is unrelated to religious beliefs. Clearly the idea of gaining joy and happiness is central to Mormon beliefs, even if a large part of it is in the form of future happiness, like some gigantic post-dated check. But Mormons are also taught that faithfulness brings blessings in the here and now, and once someone accepts that premise it works in two ways to keep them faithful. One, they naturally attribute all the happiness they do enjoy to God's blessings; but secondly, they have no one to blame but themselves when they don't feel happy. It's almost shameful to be unhappy in Mormonism (must be sinning!), which might explain why Utah leads the nation in antidrepressant usage.

The bottom line is when I try to imagine myself living again as a Mormon the thought turns my stomach, but when I actually believed it all it wasn't so bad. I guess what I'm getting at is that the decision of whether to be Mormon or not is not about weighing which will bring the most happiness for you and your loved ones. Beliefs just don't work that way. If you accept the church's truth claims you'll also accept what it teaches you about your own happiness; if you find the truth claims impossible to swallow then no utilitarian argument in its favor is likely to keep you in.

Source(s):

Stumbling on Happiness, Daniel Gilbert
Mistakes Were Made (But Not by Me), Carol Tavris and Elliot Aronson

Truth comes knocking

2009-12-11T00:54:00.007-07:00

Why are Mormon Missionaries rejected when they usually have the persona of innocence and humility? —Unapologetic Apostate

Every single missionary I've come across smiles and is so friendly, so why are they rejected so much when they are so nice?

It's not just a persona. They're nineteen years old. Most were raised in predominantly Mormon communities with a rather skewed view of what life is like for people without the fulness of the gospel. So innocent, definitely yes. Humble, maybe not so much, but then even after their missions it's a rare Mormon who recognizes the arrogance of claiming knowledge that is mystically hidden from the rest of us through sin or being unprepared or whatever.

And really, that's the reason I think that the mishies' message is largely ignored. Most people in this day and age recognize that important, life-changing, reality-based truth is not going to come from two kids knocking on your door. Period. You can get your vacuum cleaner cheaper on Ebay, and you can get your facts straighter from Wikipedia.

Born to make mistakes

2009-11-21T17:06:00.008-07:00

What are some typical characteristics of people who fall for the Mormon scam? —Desiree

Born into a Mormon family or befriended by Mormons.

If you're trying to imply that there's something more to it, I think you're mistaken. If you feel confident that you personally would not have fallen for it under the same circumstances, I again think you're mistaken. Mormonism works for so many people not because *those* people are stupid but because people, in general, do not make decisions rationally based on impassive logic and critical thinking. And once that decision is made we tend to use most of our mental energy rationalizing and self-justifying rather than asking, "Was that the right choice?" Of course this applies to all people, believers and nonbelievers. Religions are an interesting view into the way humans think.

The evolution of greed

2009-11-07T00:28:00.001-07:00

How is the LDS (Mormon) church "greedy" when the church leaders aren't even paid? —Alissa

Many people accuse the LDS church of being greedy, but the leaders aren't paid so how can this be?

First of all it's not all about getting paid. Anyone who's in charge of a budget is in a position to make decisions about how it gets allocated. Money is power, and the LDS church asks for a whole lot of money from its adherents.

But don't kid yourself, there are lots of church leaders who do get paid, just not on the local level. General authorities are paid, and mission presidents are paid. And the church employs a ton of people. I doubt the leaders are paid a lot, but then I guess we wouldn't know that, would we? Your church isn't comfortable opening its books like most other churches.

Anyway, the real answer to your question is more complicated than any of this, and I'm sure you're not really interested in hearing it. Ultimately the LDS church is greedy because it works. Because operating this way has allowed it to survive when other churches have failed. It asks everything from believers because it can, and because human nature is such that the more you voluntarily give to something the more blind you become to its flaws. Your church is greedy for the same reason a giraffe's neck is long. Ponder that one.

Joseph Smith, executive producer

2009-11-02T22:30:00.003-07:00

What were the main issues Joseph Smith struggled with in the beginning of the mormon religion? —Wizard G

mainly that and also what do Mormons call people who don't follow their faith? i can't remember but it would be useful to know, thanks!

Gentiles maybe? That's a Book of Mormon term really. Mormons used to use it more; now you'd only hear people referred to as Gentiles if someone's joking around.

I'm not sure what you're looking for in terms of Joseph Smith's "issues." In his younger years Joseph Smith strikes me as a person who wanted out. He wanted to find his place in his own family, wanted financial freedom for his parents, wanted to be trusted and thought well of, probably a lot like most others. But he was also ambitious and apparently not held back by fear or self-doubt. And he had ideas.

Sometimes I wonder what sort of life Joseph Smith might have led were he born into the world today instead of being stuck in a little farming community with little hope of social mobility. Maybe he'd have been drawn to the clergy still, but oddly enough I've never seen Joseph Smith as a particularly religious man. I think it was just the train that happened to pass through town. No, when I try to picture a modern Joseph Smith, I somehow always see him as an actor or a performer of some kind. Makes you wonder how different the world would be today if young Joseph had had other opportunities to apply his talents.

All in a day's labor

2009-11-01T22:54:00.006-07:00

What is the average number of converts Mormon Missionaries get on their mission? —HomoErectus

I was a Mormon missionary in Korea in 1992–1994. I and my various companions had one convert baptism in the time I was there. It was a guy who was dating a member and wanted to marry her. I had a Korean companion at the time, and he sort of flew through the six discussions we used to do before baptism. I worried that the guy wasn't ready for baptism, but he passed his interview. I wonder if my Korean companion is still participating in the Mormon church. Seems like he was sending most of his monthly stipend money home through the post office. I seriously doubt the guy we baptized considers himself Mormon today.

Mr. Holland's Onus

2009-10-13T22:24:00.013-06:00

.
It's been a week now since LDS General Conference came and went. As luck would have it I heard only one talk, on the radio as we were returning from California. Turns out it was the one that seems to have created the most buzz among Mormons and non-Mormons alike. Elder Jeffrey R. Holland spoke about his views on the Book of Mormon. You can read his talk here: http://lds.org/conference/talk/display/0,5232,23-1-1117-28,00.html although you may want to watch or listen instead to get a sense for how animated and emphatic he was in the delivery.

It was the sort of thing that felt like it ought to be responded to, but I just haven't had the energy before now. Fortunately many others have, though. So for any Mormon readers out there who were wowed by Elder Holland's performance and wonder how any ex-Mormon could not be impressed, here is a sampling of what ex-Mormons and outsiders have had to say about it.

Holland - Insulting those who leave
Jeffrey R. Holland Just Lost His Mind
An LDS Gem: Elder Holland's Opus
General Conference impressions

I don't know Jeffrey Holland. He seems like a genuine and thoughtful man, and he's certainly an articulate and engaging speaker. I think as much as any current LDS leader he has attempted to understand folks like me who have studied Mormonism and choose not to be a part of it. At least he does a good job of addressing the opposing view in many of the questions he answered for the PBS special The Mormons. You can read his interview here: http://www.pbs.org/mormons/interviews/holland.html.

And that leaves me quite ambivalent in my feelings about this talk. Does he actually believe the things he's saying? Of course he must, and so I'm inclined to forgive a little evangelical zeal. But the talk is laden with unsupported claims and unsupported accusations and criticisms. Mr. Holland knows there is enough uncertainty about the veracity of some of his assertions to drive a Mack truck through, but you'd never get that from this talk. He's playing to the home crowd here, but I wonder if he gave any forethought to the impact on part-member families or member/non-member relations in general.

So I'll leave the textual criticism to the authors linked above, and just say this. Mr. Holland, in defending the indefensible and abusing the trust so many have in you, you've made the world I live in a worse place. There is by no means a general consensus among informed people that Joseph and Hyrum knew they were about to be killed, that the Book of Mormon is "teeming with literary and Semitic complexity," that other authorship theories have failed, nor that I or anyone else has had to crawl around your stupid book to come to the conclusion that Joseph Smith was not trustworthy, and that the truth claims your church makes are ridiculous and impossible to reconcile with what we know about the world today.

You came much closer to the truth with your answer in the PBS interview when asked about the Book of Mormon: "The Book of Mormon," you said, "is a matter of faith." End of story. The onus is on you to show why this book deserves consideration in spite of the mountain of contradictory evidence and the echoing dearth of positive evidence for its claims. Pointing to millions of adherents doesn't work. Lots of faiths have their millions. Pointing to Joseph and Hyrum finding comfort in the book doesn't work. David Koresh and Jim Jones were equally convinced of their various causes. All I see in your words here is desperate name-calling and an adamant refusal to reconsider cherished beliefs. The faithful will love you for it, but meanwhile their worldview is pushed ever further away from an ability to understand and have meaningful relationships with people outside the tribe.

Faithful due diligence

2009-09-18T00:00:00.003-06:00

What mormon statememts, found on the internet, are not true? —Jess *For Jesus*

I am considering join the church, and I am doing a final "review" before i go to baptism, and alothoug I feel it is right, some of the stuff on the internet scares me. So, can people tell me what is on the internet about mormons that is not true like beliefs,practices etc. And if possible please provide reference.

Jess, it might help if you break down the "information" online into categories. Not all Mormons are afraid of investigating things online, but it's common (as you've seen here) for people to say you should avoid online sources or only go to lds.org or whatever. And basically that's good advice, for the category that's foremost in Mormons' minds. What they care about—all they care about in many cases—is the doctrine. Mormons are interested in current Mormon beliefs and culture. They're interested in things like gaining a testimony, changing behaviors, being involved with callings and temple attendence, that sort of thing. The internet is not going to help you here.

So if that's all your "review" is about, I'd say you're already on your way to being a Mormon. But there are other categories of information that relate to Mormonism, even if most Mormons today don't care about them or aren't aware of them. Unfortunately for most of its existence the church has largely been able to tell its own story to its members, without the burden of scholarly review. And after decades of telling and retelling by the home team, you can imagine that what the typical Mormon understands today about Mormon origins and history can vary dramatically from the view of outsiders.

There's also a third area of study that comes to mind here, and that is the relationship between what is commonly taught in LDS churches about the world you live in versus what the rest of the world believes through scientific study. This is where things get messy for the LDS church in my opinion. Of course you could say the same about religions in general. There's literally zero chance, for instance, that the earth was washed clean in a worldwide flood four thousand years ago. That didn't happen. For that matter Adam and Eve didn't start the human race six thousand years ago either. And dead people don't revive on command, and you can't make wine from water, and so on. So really if there's a difference here between the LDS faith and any others it's a matter of degrees only. However, the LDS church's origins are recent, and it makes many testable claims, like Joseph translating Egyptian or ancient Hebrews populating the Americas. Certainly that kind of info can be found, with sources, all over the internet.

But again, if you're just talking LDS doctrine, don't waste your time with evangelical Christians who want to disparage Mormonism online because it contradicts their own view of the Bible or whatever. Those people never subject their own beliefs to the same scrutiny. If they did, we'd call them ex–evangelical Christians.

I know my church is true

2009-09-14T22:45:00.007-06:00

What are good questions too ask mormon people? —shelia c

my bestfriend is talking to the missonaries and she needs good question too ask them!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Seriously? I take it your friend would like to challenge their beliefs, but it's probably no use. If she wants to Bible bash with them it'll go nowhere. Mormon doctrine is no less sensible than any other church's, and in some ways it's probably more internally consistent. The worst you could say about Mormon doctrine is that it's unorthodox compared to mainstream Christianity. So what?

Of course your friend could ask for evidence for the church's claims, or point out any number of ways the church's view of the world is at odds with modern science. But this won't faze the missionaries either. It's the difference between God's perfect knowledge and man's limited knowledge. Or it's anti-Mormon lies trying to keep you from the truth.

If I were in your friend's shoes and wanted to get these missionaries really talking rather than presenting what they're trained to say, I'd focus on how they came to believe in their church versus all the other possible "truths." They'll explain how they "gained a testimony" through scripture reading and prayer, but that's probably where it ends. What other Christian churches did they study and pray about? How did the feeling compare when they studied Scientology and prayed about it? How about when they studied the Koran and prayed about that? Did answers come more readily when they prayed to Zeus or Thor?

Even if they just want to talk Mormonism, how did they decide to go with the Brighamites and not the FLDS church? Did they pray about both? If you can get them really thinking about their epistemology and the obvious fact that their current faith is mostly an accident of birth just like most other people's on earth, then at least you've opened their eyes. Don't expect to see any overnight changes in their beliefs though. That only happens on its own time, maybe years later, and maybe never.

The problem with golden plates

2009-08-31T00:07:00.006-06:00

.
What happened to the Mormon Golden Plates? —Jack

Gone. Disappeared. Whisked away by an angel. It happens with golden plates you know. I see you doubting, but that's actually Satan trying to keep you from finding truth and happiness. And also if you don't believe you won't be with your family in the eternities. Sorry, dude. You couldn't muster a little faith? There were witnesses you know. They all signed the testimony Joseph wrote for them. That was good enough for Mark Twain.

"I could not feel more satisfied and at rest if the entire Whitmer family had testified." —Mark Twain, "Roughing It"

To teach and preach and work

2009-08-06T00:21:00.002-06:00

How do I tell my parents I don't want to go on an LDS mission.? —Red Shift

This is very hard for me. Both my parents are Mormon and expect me to go on a mission. For years I've been seen as the golden boy of my church and of my family and everyone expects me to go and set an example to those younger than me. My grandparents on both sides are absolutely staunch LDS members and also have these same expectations for me. However, I simply do not believe in my church enough that I could go about for two years trying to convince other people to join it. How do I tell my parents that I do not want to go? I think my mother will be more understanding than my father. If anyone who answers here went on a mission, LDS or otherwise, please tell me if I am missing anything.

A couple of thoughts here, and for background I was raised Mormon and served a mission in Korea, but am no longer LDS. The fact is, there's very little I like or admire about Mormonism now. I think it sucks for families like yours (and mine) where not everyone wants to participate, but the church causes believers to feel hurt when loved ones don't conform.

But, having said that, I have never regretted the time I spent as a missionary. Now granted, I was a total believer at that point, so it didn't cause me any grief to share what I "knew," and the Koreans never really took to Mormonism anyway. And while I was there I did a lot of growing up, made some lifelong friends, learned a language and culture and learned to survive on my own in a relatively safe and controlled environment. Kids can do a lot worse in their first years out of high school.

So I guess my point is you can still choose to go and make the best of it if you see no way out or don't want to make waves. You'll have some good experiences, and you'll be a lot better off mentally than most of the other "elders" who buy into the guilt and power trips that mission leaders lay on. Maybe submit your papers and see where you get called. If it's Bolivia or Cuba or some other dangerous third world country, say no! You can always back out and reapply later.

If, however, you feel you're ready to assert yourself and step off the Mormon assembly line, I think you can best do this by simply delaying. Tell the bishop you're not ready spiritually or whatever. Tell your parents the same thing. And your aunts. And anyone else who asks. Decline to speak about it further. Mormon culture does not teach people to respect personal boundaries, so you might have to get used to just saying no or walking away. You don't owe anyone an explanation. Best of luck to you.

Guap

Evangelical fail

2009-08-06T00:16:00.003-06:00

Why didn't god include the book of mormon in the old and new testament? Why did he hide it for 1900 years? —I CURED MY YELLOW TEETH

He did. It's called a triple combination, and you can ask any Mormon to show you theirs. As for hiding it for 1900 years, turns out not all events happen concurrently. Sort of like God hid the New Testament from Moses. Fail.

TO THE UNKNOWN GOD

2009-08-04T22:15:00.004-06:00

What should i do! My life is crumbling down on me!? —Shelly

Ive been having a hard time beliving in God and Jesus. I wonder how can i belive when my life has been horrible. No matter how hard i pray and pray nothing turns out right. About 3 or so years ago my mother was faced with a disease, one with even now the doctors cant figure out. But when i was younger my biological father ssexuallyabused me. Lucky im not able to see him anymore. But when my mother got married again, i get to wake up with my step father on my bed every morning touching me inappropriately. And my motther dosnt believe it. How can i belive in a God who only makes my life miserable? Any advice?

Shelly, none of this has anything to do with God. Please, talk to a counselor, call the police, let someone in an authority position know what's happening. Your life does not have to be like this, and people who do these things need to be held responsible for their actions. Wondering why God would choose this life for you is pointless, because God makes no sense in cases like yours.

Blasphemous rumors

2009-08-01T01:53:00.006-06:00

Strange Mormon beliefs? —Karmen

haha...so I am a mormon and i just heard a couple of the weirdest things that people think that Mormons believe. I was just wondering if you guys have heard things that were strange things about mormons and I was just wondering what they were. Oh, and, if you have any questions about mormons, you should ask a mormon because most people don't know a lot about us and that is how things get made up...lol! Now...what strange things have you heard?

Yep, I've heard a few. Here are some, just for laughs. I once heard that Mormons believe that the sun gets its light from a star (or planet? I'm not sure) called Kolob, and not from nuclear reactions. I heard they believe that ancient inhabitants of the Americas were farmers with all the same animals and crops as we have here today. There was also a story about a floating white Indian zombie with a treasure map, and another about a talking sasquatch who claimed to be Cain from the Bible. Wasn't there also something about John Smith, Jr. telling young girls that a sword-wielding angel would decapitate him if he didn't "marry" them in a private ceremony that conveniently he was authorized to perform himself? That one kills me. Like people would really follow the dude if that one were true. What next, did he scam people out of their money in a banking scandal? I suppose people will next be inventing stories about Mormons thinking dinosaurs lived on other planets.

Mormons do have horns though. That one is true.

Jury of your feelings

2009-07-29T13:47:00.003-06:00

Arguments against Mormon religion? —Marie

Is there any clear contradictions or known arguments against the Mormon faith?

Yes. All religions make claims without evidence. In Mormonism believers are encouraged to "find out for themselves," but not by any sort of rational process of examination. Rather, they're supposed to read from the Book of Mormon and pray for a good feeling about what they read. You know, sort of like you would do if you were on a jury. ... Er, I guess that's a bad example.

If you really need to see a "clear contradiction" to the claims of Mormonism, you can skip right past all the wacky anachronisms and plagiarisms in the Book of Mormon and go straight to Joseph Smith's "Book of Abraham." Despite what others here have said, it doesn't take any distorting of the truth to see that what Joseph claimed to have translated from Egyptian papyrus is now known to be a complete and total fraud. Look it up yourself, you be the judge.

Ask Gramps

2009-07-26T00:53:00.003-06:00

Can the dead hear our thoughts? —Sarah B

Can dead people really hear our thoughts?
I read somewhere they could, but only if they are listening.
Man i thought the only privacy we had was in our head
LOL

Sort of. There's an interesting line of thinking that says mysticism has its roots in our need to get help with decision-making. The idea is that being decisive gave some groups an evolutionary advantage, but only if they weren't always knocking off the tribal leader for making a poor choice. So this need, combined with our natural human tendency to continue to feel an association with people after their death, led to *asking* the dead for help and "divining" their answers. Because hey, if grandpa leads us astray, we can't do him any harm—he's already dead!

So yeah, in the minds of the living at least, you could say the dead hear us and help us decide how to act. If you're asking whether the deceased people themselves continue to "hear," though, that's a no. They are dead.

The road less traveled

2009-07-06T10:54:00.005-06:00

The book of mormon...? —drewman818

I have been reading the book of mormon lately just to check it out and haven't been able to find any bad things or contradictory doctrine to the bible... where do i go from here?

Straight to the baptismal font.

Unless of course you have a fully functioning mind and some basic critical thinking skills. In which case you may want to examine some of your assumptions—like the assumption that the Bible is infallible or not self-contradictory in a hundred different ways. Or the assumption that if someone were going to start a church by writing new scripture they would fill it with "bad things" rather than good.

Here's some free advice. You're considering joining a group that most Americans view rather negatively. In a way that's admirable, because you're not just following the crowd. And you're doing some firsthand study to figure things out, also very admirable. So as long as you're feeling courageous, finish reading the Book of Mormon and then pick up a very small book called "Letter to a Christian Nation" by Sam Harris. Want to follow the truth wherever it leads? Even if it means standing alone? Try this: drop your religious notions altogether and be a rationalist.

Source(s):

http://www.amazon.com/Letter-Christian-N...

Pascal's remorse

2009-06-24T20:49:00.004-06:00

What Good Can Come From Being Athiest? —ROD

Im a christian. and I see no reason why someone would be atheist. Of course everyone has the right to believe what they want but why would someone want to jeopardize their life.

It's funny how when believers are confronted with contradictory evidence, the argument always shifts to utilitarian reasons for believing. "OK, maybe my beliefs don't really make rational sense, but being a Christian makes me a better person!" Well does it? I think people who feel this way need to give themselves more credit. Take it from someone who once was a believer and now is not, God is not the only thing keeping you from being immoral.

As to your comment about "jeopardizing your life," I can only guess what you mean by that. Are we talking about the afterlife? Because if so that logic makes no sense at all unless you first believe that (a) there is an afterlife, and (b) the particular religion you're a part of is the one that can lead you there. When you consider the utter lack of evidence for (a) and the sheer improbability of (b), I'd say there's a much better chance that you're jeopardizing your life now by turning over your time, energy, and means to a cause that is based on false premises.

Rational theology

2009-06-18T17:01:00.004-06:00

How would I witness to Mormons? —Jonathan

Ok, I was almost sucked into the Mormon religion, and I now see how false and polytheistic it is. I am sad that there are people having their eternities ruined by this. I really want to try my hardest to get people out of this. I have a friend that is a Mormon. and a bunch of people I know. I really want to witness to them of the power of Jesus Christ, and get their focus off of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. But I don't know how to go about this. I really want to get people out of the religion. I need your help.

I think I can help you out here. See, your Mormon friends believe some things that are demonstrably false. All you have to do is show them the evidence, and then they'll evaluate it rationally just as you have done.

Start with the story of Adam and Eve. Mormons actually believe that the entire human race came from these two individuals. Their creation myth is entirely silent on the evolution of Cro-Magnons or their cousins the Neanderthals. Funny, you'd think they'd have heard about this by now.

Anyway, once you've cleared up that bit of nonsense, point them to the story of Noah's ark. It's a fundamental belief in Mormonism that the earth was deluged in water and a guy named Noah survived with his family by floating it out in a boat. Just point out to them what a worldwide flood would have done to all the plant and animal life on the planet. All gone, right? So what, did Noah then float from continent to continent replacing all the indigenous plants and animals in their natural habitats? And just exactly how many species of beetle did he pack on the ark? (Because God knows they haven't evolved since!)

That ought to be enough to help your friends see they've been wrong all along. They'll be all ears to hear about your church.

Mormon or ninja?

2009-06-18T16:57:00.003-06:00

Could knowing the difference between a Mormon and a ninja actually save your life? —tjsgigante

No words.

Bachelor of nonsense

2009-06-15T12:54:00.003-06:00

Has an ex-Mormon ever returned their BYU degree? —Davidson

or would that be too inconvenient, losing the benefits of being seen as a BYU alum.

since they hate the church so much, has anybody torn it up or returned it?

Huh? They might wish it was another school's name on the diploma, but that's not a reason to give back a college degree. You haven't thought this through. The sad reality is there are lots of students at BYU who no longer believe in Mormonism. (Maybe they went off campus and searched "book of abraham" on YouTube.) But these students are forced to keep a low profile and hide their disaffection for fear of expulsion and inability to get transcripts. You can read their stories at exmormon.org and other places. BYU treats a loss of faith in Mormonism as an honor code violation, and the only way to be reinstated is to be rebaptized a Mormon. Sort of turns that whole persecution thing upside down, doesn't it?

Speaking Gentile

2009-06-09T22:59:00.007-06:00

What are some Book of Mormon study aids in English for people with English as a second language? —Dan

I am an LDS member and I need to know of good ways to study the Book of Mormon in English. I have been called to be a missionary in an English speaking country and English is my second language. Are there any study aids or methods out there that would help me? Thank you for your help.

The best one I could suggest is called "An Insider's View of Mormon Origins" by Grant Palmer. Since you'll be telling the story of the coming forth of the Book of Mormon over and over on your mission, this will give you enough background to ensure you don't unintentionally lie to people.

As far as language goes, I served in Korea and found there was no shortage of gospel-related study materials in Korean. What I wish I'd done more of is study the culture and politics and current events so that I could converse about things that matter in people's everyday lives. My biggest regret is that I spent two years in Korea thinking I had something important to tell the people, and not really learning anything in return.

Source(s):

http://www.amazon.com/Insiders-View-Morm...

Live, laugh, love ... or else!

2009-06-08T23:29:00.007-06:00

Why is the Mormon religion so.. Stern? —Reed

I could not find another way to convey the word I was meaning to say.. So I have a a couple friends that are of the Mormon, and I have noticed that all of them are much less careless about thing as a lot of other people. And then one day I asked one of them why it was like that. They replied "Well, God advises us to live our lives to the fullest and these are the ways he chose." I proceeded to ask why have to they listen to God and they replied "We don't HAVE to, its our choice to"

I know what you're talking about, Reed. Mormons emphasize general goodness just like every other faith, but they take certain surface behaviors to the extreme. It's a proselyting faith, so I think that's one reason. Mormons are encouraged to be a light to the world, and the way that usually comes across is through things like not smoking or drinking, not swearing, not wearing sleeveless tops, that kind of thing.

I think there's more to this whole "stern" thing, though. Mormonism is unfortunately a very guilt-based religion. From their youth members are given all these expectations for conforming to a certain mold, they're asked to take on all kinds of church responsibilities, and to remember a whole laundry list of to-do items to keep them "close to the Spirit." All of this is supposed to make them deliriously happy of course, and for some personality types I'm sure it really works. The rest take their Prozac and put on a happy face, because to do otherwise is to admit you're not living as you should.

So why don't they just quit if it's making them miserable? Simple, they really believe what the church has told them all their lives. I think it's the guilt that actually keeps people in, keeps them needing the redemption the church promises, and keeps them so focused on their own perceived inadequacies that they never stop to question it all.

Mormons have a saying that the church is perfect even if the members aren't. I think that's pretty much backwards. Honestly I think what every Mormon needs more than anything else is just to be told they're OK, really and truly OK, just the way they are. But they're not going to hear that at church.

His image in their countenance

2009-05-31T21:28:00.005-06:00

My name comes from the Mormon religion, and I'm not Mormon anymore? —Ammon V

My name Ammon comes from the Book of Mormon which is a spiritual book that comes from the Mormon religion. I have recently converted away from being a Mormon but with this name that I feel now is completely fake for what it used to stand for. Also Mormons constantly just assume that I am Mormon also by recognizing my name. Opinions?

I think Ammon is a cool name, you should keep it. Yes, it'll throw Mormons off, but even if you changed it there are probably other aspects of your upbringing that will also trigger their "spiritual eye" and make them think you're Mormon. Just get accustomed when asked to saying, "I was raised Mormon." You don't have to be embarrassed about it and you don't have to explain any more than that unless you choose.

Being an ex-Mormon myself, I understand a bit of what you're feeling. People assume I'm Mormon all the time. A guy at the Fidelity Investments office last week asked me what ward I lived in. No biggie. I may no longer subscribe to the church's truth claims, but it's still my "tribe," know what I mean? It no doubt affects the way I talk, dress, and act and always will. Some ex-Mormons are bothered by this and feel they need to do something to signal their separation from the group. I get that. To each their own I guess.

What I find humorous about the whole thing is the way members of the faith sometimes misinterpret these Mormon cultural norms as being something more. They see a stranger at the grocery store and feel it's the spiritual glow about the person that tipped them off that this person is Mormon, when actually it was the sugary sweet voice and the knee-length shorts. :)

I am Sam, Sam I am

2009-05-24T17:49:00.004-06:00

Have you ever read the entire Book of Mormon? —MaidservantX

If yes, what were your impressions or observations or any comment you'd like to make regarding your experience of reading the Book of Mormon?

I used to keep track of the number of times I read it cover to cover. I think the total was six, not that many considering I was a believing Mormon for over thirty years. I think if people believed Green Eggs and Ham was scripture, they'd find all sorts of inspiration in it, along with mounting evidence that it is true. It even has chiasmus!

Help, I'm being love bombed!

2009-05-20T10:56:00.005-06:00

Inactive mormons, help me please!? —jjadee

i'm an inactive mormon now and i want to know how to get the other members to quit bothering me to come to church!!! this is not meant to be funny it is a serious question.

As you know, if you've been baptized into the Mormon church they will literally keep you on their records for life (or longer if they don't know you've passed away). And church leaders are always being pressured to do something about those "inactive" names on their ward lists. So there are really two problems here: the people who know you now and want to reactivate you, and the people who will seek you out over and over again every time there's a new leader put in place who feels responsible for you because your name's on their list.

Basically that means the solution will require two parts as well. The second part is the easy one: resign your membership. Just send a letter to church headquarters telling them you're not Mormon anymore. Legally they can't subject you to church discipline and have to honor your request. The link below is the best online resource for doing this part.

But dealing with your current Mormon neighbors and friends and family is much more difficult, especially if that's a large number of people where you live. You should probably join an online support group to get help on handling each individual situation.

The Mormons who are pushing you to come to church are doing so because they're fully convinced their church is "true" and therefore good for all people. So my general advice would be to deal with that underlying cause directly. What are the reasons you choose to be inactive? Whether it's issues with the culture or beliefs or whatever, the Mormons you're talking to have probably never heard anyone oppose their view, so it's easy for them to feel morally superior. Put them on the defensive and they'll learn to respect your boundaries.

Source(s):

http://mormonnomore.com/

The unwritten order of things

2009-05-12T02:21:00.006-06:00

Who picks the Mormon prophets and gives them power to speak for God? —Sophie Tucker

Whoever's been in the longest gets it. Here's the quorum listed by tenure, with current age.

Boyd K. Packer, 84
L. Tom Perry, 86
Russell M. Nelson, 84
Dallin H. Oaks, 76
M. Russell Ballard, 80
Richard G. Scott, 80
Robert D. Hales, 76
Jeffrey R. Holland, 68
Henry B. Eyring, 75
Dieter F. Uchtdorf, 68
David A. Bednar, 56
Quentin L. Cook, 68
D. Todd Christofferson, 64
Neil L. Andersen, 57

Just looking at the numbers, those most likely to spend time as prophet are Oaks, Holland, and Bednar. But that's just speculation. In actuality God will pick the next prophet, Sopranos style.

Source(s):

Ensign article on succession in the church: http://tinyurl.com/32t2nb

Survival of the richest

2009-05-04T20:55:00.001-06:00

Letter to a female friend. —NoLongerASheeple

I'm posting this up in hopes that it will be helpful to those of you who are new to Postmormon. None of this is new information but I hope it will give those of you who are considering leaving the church a view that may help you in your journey.

XXXXX, there is no need to apologize, I'm not in the slightest upset. I'd be more concerned if you didn't challenge the things I'm telling you. I have nothing to hide here, no reason to try to sway you regarding the church (other than wanting to see you reclaim your own personal power and shed a belief system that I think is personally very harmful.) The Church really doesn't want you to examine the factual evidence critically because as soon as you do, it becomes very evident that it is entirely made up.

The Church has a vested interest in keeping you in, and involved, in terms of tithing receipts. Ten percent of your (and everyone else) income adds up to a tidy chunk of income for the church, especially when it is tax free. The Church is totally unwilling to let the general membership know what it is doing with the money. That indicates to me, that the church couldn't withstand the backlash if the members truly knew where they were spending the money, (For example, 2 billion dollar malls and million dollar condos.) If they were truly using the money for humanitarian purposes, there wouldn't be any problem.

The Church has controlled so many things in our lives that even as aged adults we really are still the emotional age of children. We are told what our schedule is, what we can eat, what we can wear, what kind of recreation is okay, whom we can have sex with, what is acceptable sex, even what words we are allowed to say, and told who we can and cannot criticize. That is pretty damned invasive control!
Women are treated as second class citizens only good for having and raising children. The Church, as an organization, is homophobic, racist, misogynistic, controlling, psychologically damaging, and dishonest. It sucks you in with the promise of eternal families and then holds your family hostage when you see through the lies. Your time is no longer your own, hundreds of hours each year are spent serving the church teaching and spreading it's propaganda, indoctrinating your children, missionary work, temple work, etc. You are set an impossible standard (perfection) and then made to feel guilty for not achieving it. You don't even get to define what "perfection" is. Instead, someone tells you what perfection means, and then you are expected to fit yourself into that mold. You are expected to do this regardless of your own nature and whether or not you are even capable of doing it. (You aren't, and nobody is. It is simply a control technique.) Even the social organization of the church is designed to control members with home teachers and visiting teachers expected to visit and report (tattle) on you as assigned "friends." If you do leave the church, you are labeled as "Sinner", "Apostate", "Offended" or some other negative pejorative, and shunned, not only by members but by family as well.

Leaving the Church requires a few essential abilities, 1) the ability to critically analyze factual information, 2) the ability to accept criticism and condemnation from others, including family, 3) The ability to rationally and without heat discuss the obviously false doctrines and whitewashed history of the church and 4) the ability to stand alone for a period of time until you are able to develop new friends.

It is not an easy path, but it is a rewarding one.

Max

Just a thought I'd add to this. As I try to look at these types of issues from the eyes of a believer, I think it's easy to dismiss statements like the above because the believer knows that there are good people at the head of the church who would not perpetuate a fraud just to scam people out of 10% of their income. And yet that's exactly what's happening, whether those at the top recognize it or not.

The point that I think is not so obvious is that the church operates the way it does because those are the traits that survived. We don't necessarily have to impugn sinister motives to the church's present-day leaders to accept that the institution itself is ultimately self-serving. It—the church, and not necessarily those who lead it—really does have "a vested interest in keeping you in, and involved, in terms of tithing receipts."

By the way I'm not saying all church leaders are naive nor that they should all be given a free pass, just pointing out that the institution is the engine behind it all and like a living organism all the parts have an intricate symbiotic relationship that keeps things working. Or to make a long story short, it's more complicated than the church being led by a bunch of scammers, but the end result is the same.

Persecution may rage

2009-04-27T15:50:00.010-06:00

You seldom hear about anti-Baptists or anti-Lutherans, so why are Mormons always going on about "anti-Mormons"? —Lamplighter

So then, why does Anti-Mormonism exist to the extent that some here say it does?

Great question, and one that Mormons themselves point to at times to show that there must be something special about their faith. First, I think it's important to point out that in the Mormon church's history, anti-Mormons were very real. Of course when you hear about these anti-Mormons in the church's version of its history, they're always menacing and violent for no apparent reason. The unstated assumption is that these people are fighting against Mormonism because it's True™ and Satan has stirred them up to stop it. I think one of the most mind-broadening things a lifelong Mormon can do is to find out more about those people who persecuted the early Saints. I'm not saying you'll come to agree with them, but you'll at least have a more nuanced view of what it was that angered them, and what it was that they feared.

Fast forward to today. To hear some people talk, anti-Mormons are as rampant today as ever. I don't entirely disagree, but what needs to be pointed out is that the usage of the word has changed, dramatically in fact. See, in its infancy Mormonism was not just an ideology. It was an organization, a town, a city. It was a political force, and even a military presence. All of that gradually changed when the "gathering" phase ended and Mormons became a part of mainstream culture.

Most people today do not hate, or fear, their Mormon neighbors. They're not anti-Mormons in the historical sense. They may, however, think that Mormon doctrine is nuts, and they may even say so openly. I'm one of those, and I'm sure many people on this forum consider me an anti-Mormon because of it. I think today the label is mostly useful for giving Mormons a reason to ignore people who say things contradictory to their faith. But it's not a very accurate representation of me or any of the hundreds of ex-Mormons I know, frankly. I don't hate Mormons, I just think they're wrong about Mormonism.

It remains to be seen whether we'll come full circle on this "anti-Mormon" thing. The church does seem to be making its political presence and organization felt lately with the same-sex marriage issue. I think the more the LDS church is seen as a political force, the more resurgence we'll see of real anti-Mormons whose distaste for Mormons goes beyond simple disagreements about how people are saved.

A man sees what he wants to see

2009-04-26T01:28:00.005-06:00

How is anybody mormon nowadays, despite all the archealogical evidence disproving it? —Captain Haddock

Some things take time. It's hard to believe that fifteen years ago I'd never heard of the World Wide Web. I didn't have email. There was no amazon.com. It may be an Information Age, but we're still the same Homo sapiens species that hunted mammoths. We weren't built for the world we find ourselves in.

We're hard wired to think and behave in certain ways, particularly when it comes to social groups. For most of human history, being cast out of the group you belonged to would have been disastrous. We talk easily today about following your own heart and not listening to the crowd, but that's not in our nature. All I'm saying is before people will be willing to leave their Mormon faith, or any group for that matter, they have to really believe that they'll be safe without it.

And by the way, I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt as to the "archealogical evidence disproving" Mormonism. Personally I would not phrase it quite that way, unless you know something I don't. How about an "utter lack of evidence supporting" Mormonism?

That all may be profited

2009-04-21T23:48:00.005-06:00

Do mormon priests or any leader of the church of the latter day saints get paid in any way shape or form? —scottidawg@rocketmail.com

This includes finnacial support or and type of payment whether cash or not.

Yes. But most positions in the LDS church are unpaid "callings" that members take on in addition to their regular vocation. Even bishops of wards and "stake presidents" (a stake covers several wards) are entirely unpaid. All of this unpaid service is what allows the LDS church to get by while only asking members to donate 10% of all their income and to give a generous "fast offering" each month if they want the church to help their fellow man.

cadisneygirl wrote: "The highest leadership gets a small amount and living expenses, but most of them are retired from their secular jobs and have their own money."

With all due respect, cadisneygirl, neither you nor I have any idea what the "small amount" is that is given as a stipend to general authorities or mission presidents or whoever. What makes you think it's small?

mormon_4_jesus wrote: "Since about 99% of the men in our church hold the priesthood in one form or another, it would be hard to pay them all."

That's right, m4j. Apparently there was a big debate in the preexistence as to which way the money should flow in the church. Do we pay people to be members, or do we ask them to give money instead? It was widely acknowledged that God was capable of doing his own work and didn't need a dime of the Saints' money, but the prevailing opinion was still that blessings from church attendance should be indirect and nebulous. That way the less faithful could still attribute their financial blessings to other things, like say their jobs.

And in hindsight you can see the wisdom in doing it this way. Otherwise you'd have people lining up to be in church, all collecting financial rewards and worse yet expecting their own little piece of heaven later. Which could never work because, where is the faith?!! Shouldn't we have faith, the way God does? Or did, when he was like us?

Profit, seerstone, and rack of lamb

2009-04-20T00:06:00.002-06:00

Will somebody explain the mormon religion to me? —Ada

I just dont quite understand it.

So there's this kid in upstate New York. Farming country, 1820s. Only he doesn't so much like farm work. He and his brothers and father develop this sort of income-producing pastime of searching for buried treasure. Mind you, the income isn't in the treasure found but in being paid to search, both in cash and apparently in sheep needed for the occasional ritual sacrifice. Lambchops, anyone? They never actually find any gold, but the kid thinks on his feet and always has an answer for why it slipped away.

He gets religion. I guess he always had it really, but his father's leaning toward unitarianism and his mother's evangelical protestantism and Bible reading leave him conflicted. Not to mention he's a middle child and struggling to find his place. Somehow this all comes together into a story of an angelic visitation, a divine purpose for young Joseph, and the burial spot of ancient golden plates in a nearby hillside.

It's quite an interesting story, and Joseph and his eventual followers ended up shaping a large part of the history of the American West. Today the main branch of Mormonism still believes in the mission of Joseph Smith, and believes his divinely given authority carries on with a modern-day prophet. Currently that position is held by Thomas S. Monson in Salt Lake City, Utah. They build temples, read The Book of Mormon along with their Bibles, and mostly look and act like everybody else. You probably work with a Mormon or two.

Undeniable thought killers

2009-04-18T02:32:00.005-06:00

Refuting Spritual Confirmations —renegade

We have all heard a tbm claim that they have received an undeniable, personal witness of christ or joseph smith. They claim that it was far too powerful to have been generated internally, that it must have been transmitted externally, and that it even spoke truth to their mind. I have actually had such experiences in relation to the church, but I know now that our mind is perfectly capable of eliciting such a powerful sensation.

I am interested in any scientific studies that show how the mind accomplishes such powerful "spiritual" experiences. But I am even more interested in examples where individuals claimed a powerful spiritual attestation, which was later proven certifiably false or misleading, especially within the church.

One example in my family. A few years ago, several family members claimed to receive strong revelation that a certain family member not marry a certain person. They claimed that their personal revelation (for him) was undeniable, and that it would end badly. Even as a believer at the time, I questioned them as to how it was that they could receive inspiration on behalf of a brother/BIL, since they did not have dominion over him. They explained that if they prayed/fasted enough, with the right intention, that God would unveil the truth to them as well (and that he indeed had). He married her anyway, and so far, the marriage is just fine. All those who had this manifestation seem to have forgotten all about it, and frequently express how she is such a great addition to the family.

Do any of you have similar accounts?

When a Mormon says, "I can't deny the experiences I've had," what they mean is, "You're hurting my head with what you're saying and I don't want to think about it anymore."

I don't think it's an assertion you need to deal with head-on, because that would be fruitless anyway. I always just respond with, "No one's asking you to deny anything." If and when that person is in an emotional and psychological state where they're ready to deal with the possibility of the church not being true, they'll find it easy enough to reevaluate and reinterpret those experiences. No sense pushing them before that.

Facebook, rated E for everyone

2009-04-17T22:37:00.004-06:00

Facebook help . . . obviously I have offended with my views and how do I handle it? —stubborndane

Okay, I need some help here. Last night, I was on facebook with my sister and she thanked me for helping her out with opening her store. She ended the post with "knock three times" and I responded "What is wanted?" I have already received emails asking why I mock the church publically and that I have already made my opinions on the church well known---On my religion views, I stated "not sure, organized religion blows." I feel like the people who have responded with nasty grams (people from high school )who have judged me without knowing any of my history or what has happened to me since moving to So. Cal. 24 years ago. I feel judged. But I certainly don't want to offend others . . . but come on!

...

Thanks to all of you for your wonderful reply's. I thought I would share my response to facebook friend. I still have a lot of work to do to retrain my brain . . . I go into mo mode and want desperately to please others instead of putting myself first. Someday I'll be a big girl . . .

Here it is:

---really . . . this has you upset? LOL, did someone spit in your oatmeal this morning? Offensive quote deleted. Honestly, I was a bit shocked that you would turn something so small into something you felt you had to be confrontational about. You have always had a great sense of humor---where did it go? I want you to know how judgmental you came across in your post to me. You know very little about me so I am pretty sure I have not made it "clear" about my feelings and beliefs. You are welcome to your feelings and opinions and I am more than respectful of you saying what you need to---even if I don't agree. However, that same courtesy must be reciprocated. I wasn't trying to offend you or your beliefs (it was a simple comment between my sister and I) and if you only desire friends who walk and talk and act like you do, well I don't think I am that person. I need people in my life who are supportive, happy, and interested in me as a person. I don't need the judgement __________ and I am hopeful that was not your intention either.

I think we're all still working out societal norms for Facebook. It's probably a bit disengenuous to say this was just a comment between you and your sister, stubborndane. You posted it on Facebook. That's a little more like saying it to your sister on stage in front of all your earthly acquaintances. Granted it's a madhouse with conversations everywhere, but you can't blame someone for seeing and reacting to it.

That's not to say I have the answer. I've now been unfriended by at least 7 Mormons on Facebook, most of them relatives even. I'll admit that hurts. Tomorrow morning I have the pleasure of attending an Easter party at the home of one! But I at least try to be cognizant of all the potential readers of things I post on Facebook. Are you really surprised that someone was uncomfortable with you quoting the temple ceremony?

Yet another testament

2009-04-16T16:38:00.004-06:00

Could people write another Book of Mormon? —newagekook2000

I mean Joseph did it why Cant I?

Lots of people write books. They're called authors.

Longing for the dark ages

2009-04-02T10:25:00.005-06:00

Do you ever look at how crazy the world is today and think that Jesus Christ might return in your lifetime? —Carolyn1345

Why, because Obama is president? I think a little perspective could help here. How crazy is it that women can vote? That black people can own property? That your life expectancy is over 80 years? That we no longer stone adulterers and burn witches? How crazy is it that you and I are free to publish nonsense on the internet without fear of retribution?

Look, there's only one necessary ingredient to get us to Armageddon: a critical mass of militant believers. If every person on earth today, leader and layperson alike, spontaneously decided to drop their religion, whether Christian or Muslim or Mormon, all of our best reasons for killing each other would disappear. Religious beliefs are divisive and dangerous in a way that no other beliefs about the world are.

My biggest fear for our future is that end-of-times prophecies will become self-fulfilling. You're probably more worried that your kid will turn out to be gay. If history is a guide, the only hope for freedom and world peace is the spread of information and the downfall of dogma. Praying for Jesus to come only makes you a part of the problem.

Freedom wrote:

"if every person on earth were to drop their religion we would fight over different things.its our nature.also,we still have money,control,relationships,road rage,hurtful behaviour based on physical appearance.the list goes on my friend.lets try to think about what we say."

@Freedom, I didn't say people would stop killing each other. Should I have added a disclaimer that road rage would go on unabated without religion?

Lemuel the Landlord

2009-03-29T20:29:00.003-06:00

Where does the term "Mormon" come from? —?

It comes from the Book of Mormon, but I'm guessing you knew that. Joseph Smith once explained the etymology of the name, although some church leaders have attempted to discredit the quotation because, well, it's ridiculous. (See link below.)

If we assume the book is fictional, it's easy to find correlations between many Book of Mormon names and things that would have been familiar to Joseph Smith. More than a hundred BoM names are also in the Bible. Lemuel was his landlord's name. Sam was his brother. Moroni and Cumorah are generally assumed to come from the Comoro islands, whose capital is Moroni. (I believe there's some connection to treasure stories and Captain Kidd with these islands.) And then dozens of names in the book appear to be variations of other names, like Moroni and Moronihah. Not bad for a first novel I guess.

Source(s):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormon#Mean...

The May 15, 1843 issue of the official Mormon periodical Times and Seasons contains an article, purportedly written by Joseph Smith, Jr., deriving the etymology of the name "Mormon" from English "more" + Egyptian mon, "good", and extolling the meaning as follows (T&S 13:194):

It has been stated that this word [mormon] was derived from the Greek word "mormo." This is not the case. There was no Greek or Latin upon the plates from which I, through the grace of God, translated the Book of Mormon.... [The] Bible in its widest sense, means good; for the Savior says according to the gospel of John, "I am the good shepherd;" and it will not be beyond the common use of terms, to say that good is among the most important in use, and though known by various names in different languages, still its meaning is the same, and is ever in opposition to "bad." We say from the Saxon, "good"; the Dane, "god"; the Goth, "goda"; the German, "gut"; the Dutch, "goed"; the Latin, "bonus"; the Greek, "kalos"; the Hebrew, "tob"; and the Egyptian, "mon." Hence, with the addition of "more," or the contraction, "mor," we have the word "mor-mon"; which means, literally, "more good."

Living in Oblivion

2009-03-16T22:36:00.004-06:00

How many of you do this??? —Burttito

I have a very hard time making up my mind about whether there is a god or not, I think that the biggest thing that keeps me believing in a god is I want there to be something after this, I can't bear the thought of being done. To me it is like reading part of a book and never knowing what happened in the end. Once I am gone I want to watch the rest of history act out. And yet I am completely resigned to the fact that mormonisn and essentially all religion is wrong and a farce. Does anyone else have this type of internal dilema?

I think everyone has to come to their own answers on this one. I'm through with believing things just because they're comforting, so I've spent (and probably always will) considerable time coming to terms with life being just what it seems: transitory.

I have two recurring thoughts that seem to help. One is just a realization that you can make yourself crazy thinking about *not* existing, because frankly that's something our human minds might just be incapable of comprehending. So I remind myself that for billions of years—heck, for all the years that have ever been—I did not exist, and I don't find this troubling in any way.

The second thing that helps me is redefining what "I" is. If my identity is inseparable from my corporeal self, then the oak tree in my backyard has more to look forward to than I do. But when I begin to see myself as part of those things I care about—a family, a community, a species, a world—now there's an indefinite (though not guaranteed) future to be concerned about. I've never studied Buddhism, but I think its basic ideas are along these same lines. And experiencing that kind of spiritual communion and peace with the world does not require you to believe in things without evidence, like an anthropomorphic god who gives kids cancer and hates gays, but really needs 10% of your income.

You're not alone

2009-03-12T14:42:00.005-06:00

Is the internet destroying the Mormon religion by revealing all their Masonic secret rituals? —GreatFull

No. It's hard to quantify what impact the internet is having on Mormonism at all, let alone a little thing like Masonry in their temple ceremonies. Even with real numbers about attendance and tithe-paying this would be a murky subject, but the LDS church seems very reluctant to reveal anything more than this increasingly meaningless number of "total people at one point baptized and not known to be deceased."

Anyway, I think most Mormons are already aware that there are similarities to Masonry in their ordinances, and they're generally unfazed by this. The fact is most people on either side don't do much serious research when deciding to join (or leave) the faith.

I think the single biggest impact the internet has had on questioning Mormons is not the availability of well-researched information, it's the visibility of an actual ex-Mormon community living in the midst of all the believing Mormons.

Source(s):

Online community with 3,800 registered former Mormons and as many "lurkers": http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.ph...

Another one: http://www.thefoyer.org/

Yet another: http://mormondiscussions.com/

And another: http://forum.newordermormon.org/

That's a small sample, not to mention all the ex-Mormons who seem to frequent the comment section of the various local news sites, at the Trib, the DesNews, and ksl.com. Oh, and the exmo blogs ... for a fairly complete list you can go to http://latterdaymainstreet.com/ . You truly are not alone.

Could it be ... SATAN?

2009-03-01T17:31:00.004-07:00

Why does the Mormon Church have a Satanic inverted pentagram over the main entrance to their Temple? —James Joyce

Because secretly all the early Mormons were devil worshiping fiends. But good for you for seeing through their deception. Serves them right for using a known Satanic symbol!

OK, I'm kidding. Honestly, do you really think the temple pentagram was inspired by Satan himself? If you're that credulous you're in no position to be judging Mormonism.

Source(s):

http://en.fairmormon.org/Search_for_the_...

Cheese and rice

2009-02-27T23:19:00.003-07:00

Do Mormons really go to Sunday Temple and go in front of the congretation and say "I believe the Mormon Chuch? —James Joyce

is the one and true church that Joseph Smith created" or something along those words? As a cult would to reinforce people to stay in the cult?

They do this once a month in their general Sunday worship meeting ("Sacrament," not "Temple"). It's basically open mic church, with kids and adults alike taking turns at the podium. You can say whatever you feel, but the template goes something like this.

Open.
You have two choices here. You can go with the old standby, "I'd like to bear my testimony that I know this church is true." Or if you're really feelin' it you can hit 'em with, "I'd be very ungrateful if I didn't stand before you here today and tell you that I know ..." I prefer the second one because it hints that something big has happened recently, and also has the added bonus of pointing out how ungrateful everyone else is since they're still sitting. :)

Personal details.
Adults usually say something here about what they've been up to or challenges they've faced recently. Teenagers and college kids talk in guarded terms about wanting to live closer to the Spirit and "be better." Kids just skip this part.

The checklist.
You'll just have to take my word on this part, but kids and grownups alike all generally say these next few phrases pretty much verbatim. It's not a script, just conditioning I guess.
"I know that Joseph Smith was a true prophet."
"I know that Gordon B. Hinckley was a prophet and that Thomas S. Monson is the prophet today." (We're still transitioning you know.)
"I know that the Book of Mormon is true."
"I love my [mom and dad/husband and kids]."

Done.
"In the name of Jesus Christ, amen." The kids spout this part out: "Name-cheese-rice-men!" Those kids do know a lot it seems. Let's just say they're not raised with a real nuanced view of their church's position in the scheme of things.

Manuscript found

2009-02-23T17:38:00.006-07:00

If you found the lost mormon golden plates(original book of mormon tablets) would you turn them in or pawn it? —Mickey B

Are we assuming here that they're actually gold? Supposing they were made of tin, with some sheets engraved with characters on top and the larger portion "sealed" to give it more bulk without the effort of engraving? Gold or not, no one would pay more for it than the LDS church, so that's who I'd sell it to.

I know, the right thing to do would be to show it to the world and free all the Mormons from their mass delusion, right? No chance. Deseret Book would have its best year ever publishing all the apologetic responses, and soon everyone would be bearing testimony about how this further proves that Joseph was a prophet and that Satan is stirring up the wicked for the last great battle. I'll take the check, thanks.

Unto his servants the prophets

2009-02-22T22:04:00.005-07:00

What's the reason Mormon women were commanded by the prophet to wear only one set of earrings? —glows~darkly

He doesn't like a lot of earrings.

The plan of assimilation

2009-02-10T22:07:00.004-07:00

What does Mormon church teach about salvation and life after death?—Isthatso

Well in some ways the Mormon version of the afterlife is pretty all-inclusive. There's no hell in Mormonism, except for those unlucky few who go to "outer darkness," having sinned against the Holy Ghost (whatever that means, no one seems to know). For Mormons, the spirit world is divided into paradise and spirit prison. But that's only temporary, until the resurrection and judgment. The good guys get really good heaven, and the losers in spirit prison do their time and then get the "telestial kingdom." (Telestial is a word Joseph Smith apparently made up himself, but it's meant to signify the glory of the stars.)

So pretty nice, huh? If you're taking Pascal's wager and being religious just to hedge your bets, you should skip Mormonism and be a Muslim. The consequences of being a non-believer in Islam are much worse. But unfortunately that's not the end of the story, because if your *family* is Mormon and *you* are not, guess what—you just messed things up for everybody.

Wanna know how I spent my evening last night? The ward mission leader invited us over for family home evening. Yes, I'm pretty sure he knows I left Mormonism. On purpose. I'm sure when he was planning his lesson the topic seemed pretty innocuous: the Plan of Salvation. Or maybe it was supposed to open my eyes to the horrors that await if I don't start believing in disappearing gold plates, I don't know. But there we were, talking about how wonderful it is that Mormon families are forever, and my kid asks, "What if someone in your family doesn't make it?"

Here's the thing. I'm an adult. I love this kid, and I'm concerned about him. I trust the other adults in the room felt the same way. Would I want an eight-year-old worrying about the souls of loved ones who don't subscribe to the right brand of faith? No way. Would God want that? Apparently, yes.

If I were allowed to speak openly in this setting, I'd have told him, "You have nothing to worry about. All of this only matters for people who believe in Mormonism. Your family is always going to be here for you." At the least, under the circumstances, it would have been nice to assure him that God loves us all and will make everything work out. Unfortunately, though, it seems missionary zeal trumps concern for children. If Dad doesn't shape up, you can visit him in his lower kingdom or maybe phone him in outer darkness.

Sleep well, son.

Reformed English

2009-02-05T16:23:00.002-07:00

Mormons: Did Joseph Smith have access to a Bible before he "translated" the Book of Mormon? —whats up

It's no secret that the Smith family owned a bible. What's so mind-boggling about the Book of Mormon's success is that it so blatantly does borrow from the KJV bible. For me as a kid growing up in Mormonism, this wasn't so obvious. For all I knew, people still spoke that way in 1830. (They didn't of course.)

But for the early Mormon converts, it must have been apparent. Why didn't anyone call him on it? "Hey Joseph, why does Nephi quote the gospel of Mark in 1 Nephi 18:21? That makes no sense." I guess the answer is that anyone who would ask such a question was unlikely to join the Mormons anyway.

Nowadays, the church is established and most members were born into it. So when a member today is confronted with the obvious contradiction of KJV bible passages, it's probably easy to ignore simply because it's so blatant. I mean it's not like the church is hiding this fact; many of the plagiarized verses are cross-referenced for you right in the book.

So let me spell it out for anyone who's never considered this before: plagiarized bible verses in the Book of Mormon are a major anachronism for what is supposed to be an ancient American story. Not surprisingly, apologists have their own way of seeing this, from Blake Ostler's expansion theory to overwrought explanations of Hebrew word origins, but who are you kidding?

Take a look at these verse pairs and decide for yourself. These are all from the first five chapters of 1 Nephi and yet-to-be-written (let alone translated to King James English) New Testament verses. You can find similar pairs on almost every page of the book.

1 Nephi 1:14; Revelations 15:3: "Great and marvelous are thy works ... Lord God Almighty!"

1 Nephi 2:18; Mark 3:5: "being grieved [because of] the hardness of their hearts"

1 Nephi 2:24; 2 Peter 1:13: "to stir [them] up in [the ways of] remembrance"

1 Nephi 3:20; Acts 3:21: "which [have been] spoken by the mouths of all [the] holy prophets ... since the world began"

1 Nephi 4:13; John 11:50: "that one man should [perish than] that [a] nation ... perish"

1 Nephi 5:8; Acts 12:11: "Now I know of a surety that the Lord hath [commanded] ... and ... hath [protected ... and] delivered [them] out of the hands of"

1 Nephi 5:18; Revelations 7:9: "all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people"

2009-02-03T15:08:00.000-07:00

What is the best way to deprogram or un-brainwash a Mormon? —Geoff B

Maybe for starters you could find a better way of stating your position. "Brainwashed" is a loaded word. Who's to say YOU are not brainwashed? Isn't it the whole point of brainwashing that the subject does not know they've been brainwashed? When it comes to religious ideas, it's helpful to remember that there are thousands of mutually contradictory beliefs out there, nearly all of which must necessarily be false in order for another to be true.

So if you're serious about wanting to help people out of Mormonism, my first advice is that you be equally willing to look at the evidence supporting any other beliefs you may have, like Christianity for instance. Of course I don't know whether you're religious or not, but if questioning Christianity makes you defensive, then you're beginning to see how your deconversion attempts will be viewed by a Mormon.

I'm not trying to dissuade you. I'm an ex-Mormon myself and I frankly think most people (though perhaps not all) would be better off leaving the faith behind. However, I think the church provides a strong social network, solidarity, a feeling of belonging and all that. Plus of course the beliefs themselves are important to a Mormon's perceived happiness. And ultimately they stay because they believe it's literally true, that the LDS church is all that it claims to be.

Those are some pretty big hurdles for you to overcome. And actually, the last one about the church's truth claims may be the easiest of all to get past. Most people stay in the church not because they find the story of Moroni and the plates so convincing, but because they've bought into Moroni's promise. That may sound like two ways of saying the same thing, but I think they're very different. Moroni's promise says that if you ask God (i.e., pray), he will manifest the truth to you. Yes, you can investigate, look at evidence, but ultimately that feeling, that revelation from God, trumps all else.

The point is, no amount of evidence will convince someone Mormonism is untrue if their testimony wasn't based on evidence to begin with. It's like sleight of hand: the investigator is so focused on getting that answer from God that they never question the means. ("Is this how I get answers to other questions?" "How would I know if Mormonism wasn't true but still feels good?")

And again, behind that testimony is a whole lot of social support and perhaps a fear of the unknown. When people first begin to question their beliefs it's common for them to ask what else is out there that's better. Now suddenly the question has changed in their minds from one of ultimate truth to one of utility: "maybe the church isn't perfect, but it suits me."

So all of this is a really long way of saying, I don't know the best way to help someone see their way out of Mormonism--or any religion for that matter. Religion is endemic to our species. I think the person has to either want out, or truly be willing to follow the evidence wherever it leads. I think you can help in small ways. You can live your life authentically and not support them in their delusions (strong word again, but I don't know what other word to use). You can help alleviate their fear by showing that people can live happy, productive lives outside of the faith. Beyond that, I don't have a clue.

2009-01-29T18:55:00.000-07:00

Has the new Mormon Prophet given any new revelations from God? —Gerry A

No. But he has shared stories of his visits to widows, recited Edgar Guest poetry, and recently nailed the elusive "passive triplet" with this gem: "hearts were gladdened, spirits were lifted, and stomachs were filled."

OK, I just made that all up. But there's no question the role of prophet in the Mormon church is not what it was when Joseph was at the helm. I mean does anyone seriously think the sealed portion of the Book of Mormon is coming out during Monson's tenure? No, it appears that God's plan for the winding up scenes of the last dispensation is to have a bureaucratic gerontocracy that issues platitudes and can't be nailed down on any question where they may later be proven wrong. And poetry. Definitely poetry.

2009-01-26T13:24:00.000-07:00

What happens if a Mormon forgets their secret Mormon temple password, how do they get into heaven? —John L

This is an excellent question. Several of the Mormon responders just laughed this off, but I assume that's because it's coming from a non-Mormon and they either aren't endowed and don't know what you're talking about or they just don't have an answer.

But the fact is there is little more than speculation available to Mormons wondering how the temple ordinances actually fit in to the more traditional idea of Judgment Day. What if you were an unrepentant Sabbath breaker but knew all the names and signs? Or supposing you were a real Saint, doubled your fast offerings every time a high councilman asked, visited your home teaching families twice a month, ate very little meat ... but somehow misremembered your new name and couldn't come up with it?

The simplest explanation, in my view: Joseph made it up as he went along.

2009-01-18T23:15:00.000-07:00

Why would Joseph Smith lie about talking to God and write the Book of Mormon? ? —Frank

What would he have to gain?

I don't know. I could speculate, but Joseph never gave a confession or anything approaching one, so far as we know. There's one affidavit from a neighbor where he purportedly says that the Book of Mormon thing was a rouse done for fun. But who knows? It could have been for attention. To drum up treasure-seeking business. For profit. (He first attempted to sell the copyright in Toronto.) To bilk Martin Harris. For power. Women. Self-protection. And on and on. There's no shortage of reasons why people do things. What's unique about Joseph was that he actually accomplished so much.

My best guess? All of the above. The motives for his actions changed over time, as do yours and mine.

Source(s):

http://farms.byu.edu/publications/review...

2009-01-11T13:41:00.000-07:00

My friend, who helped convert me to be a Born Again Christian is now converting to be a Mormon. What do I say? —Elephant Box.

I've been Christian for over a year, and although a short time, I am strong in this faith. He fell away and now wants to convert. He comes to me for support and I don't know what to say. I don't agree with it. What would you do?

Is he asking for your opinion? If so then you should probably give it to him. But it won't help your friend to say you think Mormonism is bogus because your current faith tells you so. Of course your church thinks his church is wrong.

No, the only way I can see for your friendship to continue is to either not talk about it at all, or agree to investigate the truth claims of BOTH your church and his together. And keep in mind the right answer could end up being "none of the above." If you're not ready to face that possibility, I'd go with not talking about it at all.

2009-01-05T14:04:00.000-07:00

What do you think is the most ridiculous story in the bible? ? —Kitus Maximus

The story that makes you say, "Wow, how the hell can people believe that?! I didn't know people could be that stupid!"

I would have to say:

1) The story of Adam and Eve
2) The virgin birth

The entire book is full of crap, but those are the stories that make me LMAO every time.

Additional Details
Yeah Noah's ark is another funny story.

I agree that lots of the stories seem fantastic, like Noah's ark and Jonah and the whale and the others mentioned already. But some believers simply see these stories as allegorical. So how about the slaughter of the Midianites in Numbers 31? Not exactly "ridiculous," but definitely leaves you wondering how the hell people can believe that this book contains the will of God.

Source(s):

Numbers 31
1 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,
2 Avenge the children of Israel of the Midianites
7 And they warred against the Midianites, as the Lord commanded Moses; and they slew all the males.
9 And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones, and took the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods.
12 And they brought the captives, and the prey, and the spoil, unto Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and unto the congregation of the children of Israel, unto the camp at the plains of Moab, which are by Jordan near Jericho.
13 ¶ And Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and all the princes of the congregation, went forth to meet them without the camp.
14 And Moses was wroth with the officers of the host, with the captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, which came from the battle.
15 And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?
17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.
31 And Moses and Eleazar the priest did as the Lord commanded Moses.
32 And the booty, being the rest of the prey which the men of war had caught, was six hundred thousand and seventy thousand and five thousand sheep,
33 And threescore and twelve thousand beeves,
34 And threescore and one thousand asses,
35 And thirty and two thousand persons in all, of women that had not known man by lying with him.

2008-12-29T09:26:00.000-07:00

Can I really become a Mormon Goddess, I asked the LDS missionaries and they said it is possible :)? —Jennifer

then they invited me to the LDS place in my town and said if I believe Joseph Smith and what he wrote down and stuff then I might be able to become a Goddess and rule over my own planet, I was like wow really ? because I asked them about it, and they told me. My neighbor said to ask them about it

Yep, is that awesome or what? I'll tell you what, if you make me your leader then after you're dead and buried I'll make sure you become a magical princess with fairy wings and a wand for turning rocks and pebbles into chocolate. All I ask is 5% of your income for life, half price!

By the way, before you sign up to be a Mormon Goddess, consider that you and your sister wives will be responsible for birthing all those spirit babies, worlds without end. Predefined gender roles don't end with death in Mormonism.

2008-12-27T23:11:00.000-07:00

Since Joseph Smith was a polygamist why did the Mormon church quit practicing what the prophet taught? —Y Knot

They never renounced the doctrine. Polygamy was discontinued in the LDS church because it was illegal to practice and the church lost its fight against the Edmunds–Tucker Act. Times have changed, though. I think the church's worst nightmare today would be if anti-polygamy laws were repealed. Then who's gonna tell Bednar he can't have a couple more wives? ;)

Source(s):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edmunds%E2%...

2008-12-20T00:18:00.000-07:00

Is being a mormon really that unattractive? —happy_endings93

I kind of feel bad about it because i love the religion, but does it really affect that much my chances of getting dates etc? I mean.. i'm not going to be preachy or anything i'm not like brain-washed or anything, but i do have my standards. I don't know, i feel normal, but i don't know ha ha is being mormon really that bad ?? just need some opinions, maybe what happened if you ever dated a mormon how it went etc yess.... lol thanks

Interesting question. I know when I was Mormon I always felt like I was being held to a different standard, but now I'm not sure that's what was really happening. Now that people know I've left the faith, they seem to let their guards down around me. To your point, I've discovered that people who didn't think much of Mormonism were still polite and respectful to me. But mostly what seems different now is that they no longer feel that I, as the Mormon in the group, am judging *them*.

So I guess what I'm suggesting is that you turn this question around. Ask yourself, is it really that unattractive to me that someone *not* be Mormon? And I don't just mean because they haven't heard the gospel yet, but is it really and truly OK with you that this potential dating partner does not buy into Mormonism? Are you putting out a vibe that your "standards" are not just different but actually *better* than theirs? If so, I could see that affecting your chances of getting dates.

[Bonus points if you can name the video pictured above.]

2008-12-14T20:47:00.000-07:00

When the Mormon Latter Day Prophet had a revelation and blacks were allowed into the priesthood in 1978, is it? —Val

just a matter of time before another 'revelation' is forthcoming when the day comes that the Mormon Church will allow gay marriage.

Yes, I really think so, but not under current law of course. The real issue here is tax exemption, and when the IRS decides an organization is no longer serving the general community interest and revokes its 501(c)(3) status, that's the sort of thing that causes revelation to happen.

That is exactly what was happening in 1978 with Bob Jones University and its admission policies for black students. The Supreme Court eventually upheld the IRS's decision that racial discrimination could be cause for revocation, on the grounds that tax exemption carries a cost for all tax-payers.

In the distant future, if Mormonism survives at all (and I think it will), there will be female bishops, gay couples in full fellowship, and temple weddings open to nonmembers. But only when the community conscience makes it inevitable. God's one true church has not exactly been a trailblazer in the civil rights arena.

2008-12-04T23:35:00.000-07:00

What about Mormon beleif do you think is wrong? ? —Grace F

Here's the problem. Living things were created spiritually first, then physically. Spirits don't die, and even bodies become immortal after the resurrection. OK, so say people on average live about 86 years or whatever, and produce a few kids during their lifespan. No problem so far, right? All these people live, die, and then enjoy the hereafter in some other sphere that's pretty much just like this one only cooler.

All right, but what about their pets? A dog's lifespan is much shorter, and they give birth in litters. You used to have one dog at a time, but now all those little guys are immortal and sharing space with you in your eternal mansion. It's getting complicated, but wait.

Some animals live only a few years, and reproduce at much faster rates still. Do you get where I'm going? The ratios of people to animals are all off in Mormon heaven. Do all the little bunnies and froggies get their own planet to infest, or will we constantly have to watch our step to avoid them? And we haven't even talked yet about bugs, spiders, and mosquitos. And by the way what will the immortal mosquitos eat with their little bloodsucking mouths? Not blood, naturally.

Other than that, Mormon beliefs make perfect sense.

2008-12-04T00:44:00.000-07:00

Are there any mormons that have left the church? —group account

What happened when you did leave? Can you provide a link so I can TALK to someone about what I am going through.

There are and always have been people who leave. Interesting how once you escape the believing mindset and find yourself on the outside, you discover there are crowds of people here who've done the same.

Mormonism does not work for everyone, for lots of different reasons. In the past the church has done a remarkable job of disenfranchising those people and "protecting" believers from their disbelieving neighbors and family. They're sinners, or lazy, or couldn't live the standards. Or when none of those labels fit they must be too intellectual or proud. When all else fails, they become "the very elect," a nice backhanded way of complimenting and neutralizing them all at once.

But we're here now, the web gives a voice to the unwashed masses who proclaim that the emperor has no clothes. Thanks to the brave souls who left before us without a community to turn to, there is now support to be found all along the way. I wish you the best on your journey, and feel free to message me.

Source(s):

http://www.postmormon.org/
http://mormonnomore.com/
http://digitalplates.blogspot.com/

2008-11-23T22:16:00.000-07:00

What is a Mormon.....? —nine :]

Can someone summarize what a Mormon is? :)

They're just people born into the Mormon faith. Most Mormons are good people, as you'd expect with any group. Their religion informs their view of God and heaven, and it also extends into their relationships with families and loved ones. It's a very holistic faith, which works very well at bringing together families and communities—so long as everyone in the group is Mormon. Mixed families work around it of course, but "the church" is always an impediment in those cases.

My extended family is mostly Mormon. They're smart, educated people who try to live as they believe they should. They give a lot of time and money to church in one way or another. For those who fit in (not gay, able to swallow the truth claims, interested in serving a mission and then marrying young and having kids), it seems to give them comfort and make them happy.

Their church claims to be the one true Christian church, restored by God and Jesus to Joseph Smith. It's a compelling story really, and would clear up a lot of confusion about the Bible and its doctrines ... if it held up to scrutiny. Still, most aspects of Mormonism are no more nutty than any other religion, and most members are blissfully unaware of the most damaging evidences that contradict their faith.

2008-11-08T18:45:00.000-07:00

Why did the mormon church pour 25 million into Prop 8 and then? —Peace

have the nerve to be confused as to why people are angry with them? One mormon guy even said he was hurt that gays were calling the mormon church bigots. Now that it's passed, they don't want anger directed their way. Yes, alot of non-LDS people voted yes for prop 8, but the Mormon church was HEAVILY involved in promoting prop 8 and donated 25 million dollars. They were almost obsessed with it. Now they suddenly have this persecution complex. Why?

You're right, and it wasn't just money. Mormons were the biggest supporters in terms of man hours, setting up phone banks, putting up signs, and going door-to-door. They read a letter over the pulpit to all Mormon congregations in California asking for support, and they requested donations from wealthy Mormons across the country. I can't do better than this response I saw today on a message board (edited for language):

I ... hate the church's press release saying that they're disturbed that they are being singled out for exercising their rights.

[Idiots], you aren't being singled out for exercising your rights; you're being singled out because you're wrong. Free speech doesn't mean people don't get to speak back to you, or that your ideas get a free pass from criticism. Free speech means that you get to say your piece, and then everyone else gets to respond.

We're responding. Do you hear us at your gate?

7th grade civics, people.

2008-11-07T17:09:00.000-07:00

Can someone please help me with the what to read in the Book of Mormon? —Roxin_Ronni

I'm a non-member and have recently been getting lessons from the missionaries. Usually they write out a few scriptures for me to read but they didn't this time and i really want to read it but im unsure where to start or something that would be good to read that I haven't yet read. Any advice?

Tell the missionaries you read 3 Nephi 3:22 and you're curious about the horses, chariots, cattle, flocks, herds, and grain it talks about. Ask them, "Are you telling me this happened in America around A.D. 17?"

Or for some real fun, read the story of the Jaredite barges (Ether 2:13–24; 6:1–12). If you can get through that and still believe this book is actual history, I predict a baptism in your future. Just don't be surprised if your friends and family aren't convinced, or if they're turned off by the history of polygamy or the current fight against homosexual rights.

Sources:
http://home.teleport.com/~packham/ships....

How much does even one goat, sheep or cow eat in a year?

These are grazing animal, but they can't graze on the ocean; and they don't eat fish. Their grasses and grains have to be stored on board. A goat eats 2 - 3 pounds/day. Even a pony eats about 8 pounds/day. Let's sensibly use 3 pounds X 344 days. That's 1,032 pounds of feed per animal. That's a lot of bulky weight to lash down to prevent it crashing around when the ships roll, and even flip upside down.

2008-11-06T01:18:00.000-07:00

Was it was mostly mormons and evangelicals that made prop 8 ...and campaigned to get it passed? —Dillenger

i now consider these people my enemies. i'm not exagerating...i dont care if thats immature.
these people work to make discrimination acceptable, legal, and even popular.

they are hate groups as far as i'm concerned.

these bigots are scum of the earth

do you think i'll get over it?
i wont.

It's not immature to recognize evil and call it out. It's shameful what the Mormon church has done to perpetuate discrimination and bigotry. Having said that, though, I'm sure the Mormons and others who voted for Prop 8 were sincere in their belief that this is what God wants them to do. So I hope you can at least partly refocus your anger on the institutions rather than the believing members.

Aaron C wrote: "I really don't see it that way at all. The thing that Christians, Mormons and many other people were worried about was losing our own freedoms. Our freedom to believe differently if we choose. Never did I see the Mormon church striving to push rights be taken away for Gay couples. In fact, I'm pretty sure I heard them say that they should have the same rights as any other couple, but that marriage should be reserved for one man and one woman. If Prop 8 had not passed, it is very likely that in the next 10 to 20 years, we could lose our right to believe and teach that homosexuality is a sin. It could be considered hate speech and we would be persecuted."

Dude, does that really all make sense in your brain? You feel Prop 8 was necessary to protect you from being persecuted for hate speech? Here's an idea: stop with the hate speech. Give that a try and see how it works.

2008-11-03T00:51:00.000-07:00

Should the Mormon church lose it's tax-exemption status because they are fightin hard to pass Proposition 8? —xinio654

Under current law, no. But if you're asking how things "should" be, then yes they should lose tax-exempt status for this reason, as well as for their discrimination against women, for their exclusive wedding ceremonies, for their fraudulent truth claims, and most of all for their boring church meetings. In a perfect world, that is.

Orchidmg wrote: "All I can say is that it's the pastor's right to tell members who to vote for because God's laws come before man's laws."

True, orchidmg, but this question isn't about rights. It's about whether the federal government should subsidize them through tax exemption. When it turns out, through some strange coincidence, that God hates the same people his followers hate, they should have the right to say so. On their dime.

As man is
So is his God,
And thus is God
Oft strangely odd
—Goethe

2008-11-01T01:40:00.000-06:00

Who are your favorite bible or book of mormon characters?—superchick773

Oh there are definitely some good ones. Some not even named in the BoM itself:

Zelph, the white Lamanite
Mahonri Moriancumr, aka the brother of Jared

Then there's the dude in Ether named Ethem (see how that consonant changed there?) who executed judgment in wickedness all his days, "and he begat Moron."

And don't forget Shiz (was that another consonant change there?) who struggled for breath and died AFTER being beheaded. Awesome.

2008-10-24T20:24:00.000-06:00

What reasons do mormons have for leaving their churches? —BabyBumblebee

My boy friend is a mormon. I'm a good christian girl and devout in my faith, but he seems intent on undermining it. Frankly his religion scares me and seems a bit cult like. I want to get him to see this, but don't know how. So I just wanted to know what reasons ex-mormons have for leaving their churches.

Hi BabyBumblebee, I'm an ex-Mormon and I'm an atheist, which means I'm an ex-Christian as well. If you and your boyfriend are both willing to investigate your beliefs objectively—if you're willing to follow the evidence wherever it leads—then chances are you'll BOTH end up dropping your religious faith.

If, however, he wants to undermine your faith and isn't willing to examine his own, your relationship is not on equal ground and is in serious trouble. You may each stick with your own beliefs, but he won't respect your beliefs and you clearly don't respect his. Better to move on in that case.

Personally I hope you both decide to investigate things, because I think life is just plain better without abdicating your time, talents, and decision making to a church based on false claims. But if you're afraid to do that with your own faith, you can bet your boyfriend is too.

Pinkadot wrote: "It's interesting to me that people who get 'no answer' think its a 'NO' answer... very interesting."

If that's not a "no" answer, Pinkadot, then the whole thing is a farce. Let's play a little game: I'm holding a piece of paper in one hand that says I'm right. There's nothing in my other hand. You pick a hand. If you pick the one with the paper, that proves I'm right. If not, pick again.

2008-10-20T10:57:00.000-06:00

Prop 8 Mormon support? —SMS

I am conflicted. I am gay, was raised mormon left the church when I was 27. I am close to my parents who strongly support Calif prop 8 (they even have a sign in their yard). My mother will be singing in the Orange County Mormon Choral Organization Christmas program performed at Renée and Henry Segerstrom Concert Hall. Do I attend this program though I think the church is so off base and is one of the strongest supporter for Prop 8?

Your mom knows you're gay, right? She should be ashamed of herself and her stupid sign. Institutionalized bigotry is still bigotry, and you should not give her a free pass just because her church has done the thinking for her.

I think you have every right to tell her how offensive this is, and how much you wish she'd take the high road and stand up to her church. Someday her views will be seen for what they are: pure evil, in the same category as white supremacy and slavery.

But I think the Christmas program is a separate issue. As the other poster said, you're supporting your mom, not the organization.

Ender wrote: "Those who are fighting against Prop 8 are doing so because they are trying to force the homosexual agenda into homes, schools, and churches."

Want an inside view of the homosexual agenda? Here ya go:

Ender also wrote: "How long before someone sues the church and tries to remove the tax exempt status because of our 'hateful' policy of heterosexuality."

That, sir, is a very good question. And I suspect it won't be long after that the prophet receives a revelation that ends discrimination against gays. Don't you wish you belonged to an organization that would lead the way on moral issues? This battle is another embarrassing chapter in the modern legacy of Mormonism.

2008-10-14T11:26:00.000-06:00

What are some good things to write to a boyfriend who is now a mormon missionary? —skitt

I was a Mormon missionary. Things it would have been helpful for people to say to me:

Be careful out there. Don't assume you're safe from injury or accident or illness because you're on the Lord's errand. Missionaries can and do get hurt, especially if they don't take care of themselves.

Be respectful of the people and culture. In Korea I saw missionaries take "funny" pictures at Buddhist temples, talk disparagingly in English about people right in front of them, etc. I'm not just talking about being a good example, but rather not carrying an attitude that everything about the local culture is stupid and inferior to our way of doing things. There's probably a reason they do things the way they do.

Live on your own terms. Mission life can be hard. The pressure to baptize is enormous. It's difficult work with little reward, and too often missionaries internalize the guilt trips put on them by companions and leaders when the numbers don't meet expectations. Tell him to give himself a break, he's a volunteer for heck's sake.

Oh, and send photos so he can show you off to the locals and other missionaries.

2008-10-13T11:46:00.000-06:00

Was Joseph Smith so creative that he made up the Book of Mormon?—OBEY Sinner

This is near the top of the list when it comes to "Things Mormons don't understand about ex-Mormons." How can you not believe when the BoM is so clearly beyond the abilities of a young Joseph Smith? I'll take a stab at it, on the off chance someone's really interested in understanding us deluded apostates.

The first thing I should say is that I've read the book cover to cover at least six times, and of course read here and there throughout my 30+ years as a believer. This may surprise you, but the BoM doesn't seem especially miraculous or inspiring to me. I mean I always assumed that it was exactly what Joseph claimed it to be, but once it loses that luster it also loses its profundity. If that makes sense.

Next, your question is more an assertion than an inquiry. The implication is that an author would have to be remarkably creative to come up with this story. I would ask, compared to what? I'm no author, but I can walk into a library and find shelves stacked to the ceiling of stories I couldn't have come up with myself. If Joseph Smith wrote the book alone, he was certainly creative. So what? He also wrote the Book of Commandments, the Book of Abraham, and an Egyptian Alphabet and Grammar.

And that, of course, leads to another point: no one knows the whole story of the book's provenance, and no one ever will. Believers sometimes content themselves with the fact that we critics don't have a cohesive story to tell that counters the miraculous version Joseph purports to be true. It's an interesting mystery, I suppose, and I wish I could put it to rest, but all the witnesses are long dead. So speculating is all we can do.

That said, virtually any of the hypothesized versions of events are more believable to me than the official version. I don't know if Joseph wrote it alone, used other sources, received it chapter by chapter from the angel Sidney ... but I'm pretty sure he didn't get it from disappearing gold plates engraved in Reformed Egyptian. That's just not credible. Sorry.

And the last point I would add is that, authorship aside, the book itself is its own biggest detriment. It simply cannot be a real history of ancient Hebrews living in America. Jeff Lindsay can explain away each of the apparent anachronisms, but the list is a mile long. And meanwhile no one outside of believing Mormons or enterprising Central American tour guides has found a shred of evidence supporting its claim. This is not a case of God allowing some evidence for and some against; it's not a 50:50 by any stretch. To be a believing Mormon in these latter days requires either trusting ignorance or willing delusion. Google will be the end of Mormonism as we know it.

Edit: For slcbtf and his 23-point challenge for someone to write a similar book, I hope you realize the gigantic assumption you're making here. Who says the test of true Scripture is that it come out just exactly like the Book of Mormon? That's circular reasoning. The odds of someone's genome coming out exactly like yours are infinitesimally small, and yet you exist, don't you?

2008-10-12T20:10:00.000-06:00

Do you think there could be a connection between Ken Jennings intelligence and his religion? —Alissa

He's Mormon. I was just watching him on "are you smarter than a 5th grader" and decided to post a question. He won a butt load of money on Jeopardy for those of you who don't know who he is. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Jenning...

Sure they're connected, in the sense that his intelligence and his religious beliefs share space in the same noggin. But no, I don't think being religious makes you smart, or being smart makes you religious. I think a person's proclivity toward spirituality or religious involvement has far more to do with personality types than IQ.

Smart people may be better at articulating why they either believe or disbelieve, but smarts isn't what got them there.

2008-10-07T21:20:00.000-06:00

Mormons, do you really believe that the book of Mormon is historically accurate? —Katie C

If so, then how do you explain the many inconsistencies in geographical places and cultures that never existed?

I agree with the Mormon responders that your question isn't helpful since it doesn't offer any evidence of the inconsistencies you're referring to. But I guess it really doesn't matter anyway. Religion is like a card trick, where the "magic" has already happened before the sleight of hand even begins. It's not about what "answer" you got to your prayer; the trick is in convincing someone that prayer works in the first place, and that it's a valid way of discerning truth.

Once someone buys into that premise, it's a foregone conclusion they'll end up convinced. Joshsybs offers a good example in his answer: "Is it a history book? To answer your question - I'm not sure, and I don't really care." He then asks, "Out of curiosity, what inconsistencies do you refer to?" but is there any point in answering? Your question is a valid one, Katie C, but it just won't reach the believing mind. Evidence isn't what got them there.

2008-10-03T11:21:00.000-06:00

Can you provide me with one reason why the Mormon Church is false?—Madison

What's the point? Are you willing to entertain the possibility of it being untrue? Not to burst your bubble, but when you're honestly ready to deal with that possibility you may even find that it's ... obvious, Rosskopf's link notwithstanding.

If you're truly at that stage where you've decided you want to know the truth at all costs, the easiest topic to start with is probably the Book of Abraham.

Source(s):

For a modern translation of the recovered papyri fragments, including facsimiles, see Robert K. Ritner, "The 'Breathing Permit of Hor' Thirty-four Years Later," Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought 33 (Winter 2000):101, http://www.utlm.org/other/robertritnerpa...

Robert Ritner: "Smith's hopeless translation also turns the goddess Maat into a male prince, the papyrus owner into a waiter, and the black jackal Anubis into a Negro slave."

2008-10-01T00:09:00.000-06:00

How much does the current mormon church have in common with the 'original version' of Joseph and Brigham? —Tik

Or to put it another way, if you are a mormon and you could be transplanted back to Salt Lake in the 1850's and lived next to Brigham et. al, how much do you think you would have in common with him?

Let's see, did anyone speak in tongues at your last Relief Society meeting? Do men and women sit on the same side of the chapel? Does your patriarchal blessing say that you will live to see the Second Coming? And does it really seem like a small thing to you that Mormons then practiced polygamy? Not to mention Brigham Young believed Adam was God, so you arguably don't even worship the same being.

I think I get where the LDS responders are coming from, since it's widely taught that doctrines do not change and truth is everlasting. But that's problematic when you consider that people in 1850 did believe it was *doctrine* that a man needed to embrace polygamy to make it to the Celestial Kingdom. Then Gordon Hinckley says, "It's behind us." We believed that God was once a man, then Gordon Hinckley says, "It's more of a couplet."

Brigham Young taught that black people were less valiant in the preexistence and could only go to heaven as slaves. Is this still taught? Of course not. Joseph F. Smith insisted that the earth was 6,000 years old. Joseph Smith taught that the sun borrows its light from Kolob. It isn't just practices that have changed, things that were specifically taught as revealed doctrine also change. If you can't see that, you're uninformed or in serious denial.

2008-09-29T23:18:00.000-06:00

Good ways to convert a mormon? —MizzyMac

Whats the best way to convert a mormon to becoming a Catholic/Christian?

Just explain to them that while their myths are patently ridiculous, yours are perfectly rational. I don't see the problem.

2008-09-29T21:54:00.000-06:00

Mormons What would you do if Christian call themselves mormon? —Tinkerbelle2007

but never went to the mormon church, That why most christian get upset when you call yourself christian

Well Ender's is clearly the best answer here: "Christianity is a category, not a specific denomination. A Baptist, by definition, is a Christian. A Christian, however, is not by definition a Baptist." The logic in your question is faulty.

Your question would have more relevance if you instead asked why Mormons want to be accepted as "Christians," yet refuse to accept the fundamentalist Latter-day Saint groups into the fold of "Mormons."

Gordon B. Hinckley to Larry King: "There is no such thing as a 'Mormon Fundamentalist.' It is a contradiction to use the two words together."

2008-09-28T22:00:00.000-06:00

I have a question about the Book of Mormon.? —TR R

What were the Secret Combinations? Were they rituals of some sort of were they almost like a motion (like a sign or a handshake) that set themselves apart?

At the time of the BoM's publication, the secret combinations spoken of were widely believed to be a reference to Freemasonry. The anti-Masonry movement was in high gear during the years prior to the book's appearance, and the BoM clearly condemned these secret societies. Of course the irony is that Joseph later joined the Masons and presumably patterned his temple ordinances after Masonic ceremonies.

Somehow Mormons make this all work though. Maybe the Masons and the Gadianton robbers were practicing Satan's counterfeit version of the secret handshakes.

2008-09-26T00:07:00.000-06:00

I am SO confused about what I believe! I can't get out of my head what I was raised.? —☆Jaimé☆

I was raised as a Mormon. I am 16 years old and I don't want that anymore. Once I move out at 18 I want to wear tank tops and never visit an LDS church again.
I am struggling to forget what I was raised. I was raised that the mormon church is true, everything they says is true...But I don't want to got to Heaven or Hell, I don't want to believe there is a God...How do I get that out of my head? I mean, I kind of believe it, but I don't want to. I don't want to believe God is controling my life, that I am part of his plan. I want my own plan. I don't want to believe in him...Can I get this out of my head?
/Jaime

Additional Details

Oh wow, you guys are all so nice! I'm going to email you all to thank you! I was worried about the responces I would get, but you've all been so nice, thank you!
/Jaime
IT'S NOT ABOUT THE TANK TOP PEOPLE! I was just giving you an example!!! I'm not leaving the LDS religion FOR AN Fing TANK TOP!

Isn't it weird that a 16-year-old's apathy toward religion sends all the Mormon responders into defensive "testifying" mode? 'But it IS true! Really!' You are one powerful young lady.

Have you tried joining an online support group? The most well-known is PostMormon.org. It really isn't easy to get disentangled from something as all-encompassing as Mormonism. Give yourself time to work through this, and for the Mormons who care about you to adjust to the new you.

And if you really want to get out from under the whole God paradigm, I suggest you tell him so yourself. I'm serious. If your experience is anything like mine he'll cower and hide. Or maybe try out a new god who really kicks butt, like Thor. Or better yet, Mr. Deity (who also happens to be a former Mormon).

Source(s):

http://mrdeity.com/

2008-09-23T00:07:00.000-06:00

LDS- What have you learned (specifically not generally) from the Book of Mormon? —I know why

I learned that ancient Americans had cattle, horses, sheep, pigs, and cell phones. They had steel swords, chariots with GPS navigation, and made their enchiladas with wheat tortillas. But they were good Christians who stood firmly against ancient Unitarians, ancient Deists, and assorted agnostic riffraff.

2008-09-16T14:10:00.000-06:00

What do you know about the Mormon religion? —Hunter

I am a mormon, and I've been very curious about what other people know/think about our religion. If you are mormon I would appreciate you commenting!
*We do not believe in having more than one wife
*We can watch TV and participate in the media
*We do believe in God, and Jesus Christ
*Yes, we are modest. But we don't wear floor length clothing and long sleeve shirts all the time.
:)
(Just to clear all of that up)
Thank you!

*We do not believe in having more than one wife

Are you sure? Is D&C 132 still scripture? Can a man not be sealed to a second wife if his spouse has passed away? Do you not believe that Joseph Smith was commanded by a sword-wielding angel to take plural wives? I think you meant you do not currently live in polygamous marriages.

*We can watch TV and participate in the media

Who chooses what's OK for you to watch? Would you have a book by an ex-Mormon in your home where your bishop might see it?

*We do believe in God, and Jesus Christ

Any predictions on Jesus' return visit? Think it's the Mayan calendar after all?

*Yes, we are modest. But we don't wear floor length clothing and long sleeve shirts all the time.

I don't think "modest" means what you think it means. ;) I agree Mormons don't wear fundie clothes. But don't kid yourself, there's a dress code on and off the court. How many women in your ward today wore pants? Anything sleeveless or showing any amount of cleavage? Have you ever counted the men in the congregation who are NOT wearing white shirts? What's up with that? I'm sorry, you belong to a church that chooses your underwear. That is not normal.

You asked! :)

2008-09-16T13:54:00.000-06:00

What do you think the mormon religion is about and what they worship?—Ollie

I just wanted to know what people thought of this specific religion. I am a member of the Mormon church and I believe in it strongly so please so mean comments but feel free to express what you think.

Well not being a religious person myself I don't care about the perceived differences between Mormonism and mainstream Christianity that seem to get people in a tizzy. And yes, this question gets asked all the time, but I found your wording interesting.

What do I think Mormonism is about? I think it's all about itself, about protecting and building and empowering the Mormon institution. I think it offers its adherents a worldview and a cosmology that is comforting and gives their lives meaning, but in return it takes everything.

What do they worship? I think Mormons worship God and Jesus, but give their lives to the institution.

2008-09-16T13:44:00.000-06:00

How do Mormons preach? —Jadhu

Here I go again. Asking about Mormons. I'm really curious. I don't hear much about them. I haven't talked to a Mormon personally and inquired how do they preach. I mean what do they say, what do they present, or what do they give when they preach? Do they engage in debates? It's good to have a philosophical debate.

Mormon church services are pretty low key. You go in, sit where you want, they have a hymn and prayer and conduct ward business. Then another hymn, they bless and pass the bread and water—which you would probably decline as a nonmember, but the kid passing it won't know so he'll offer it to you.

Once that's through they announce the speakers, who are just members of the congregation who were asked to prepare and give talks for this week. There is no audience participation outside of the singing, you just sit and listen. It gets a little noisy by the end of the hour since there's no child care service and kids get restless.

That's pretty much it. The topics are assigned by the local bishop, so there aren't a lot of surprises. No visual aids, no backup choir, no amens or hallelujahs from the crowd. If there's a special musical number you don't applaud afterward. They just ... talk.

2008-09-09T12:53:00.000-06:00

Christian fraternity turns away Mormon —Hunter Riley

Freshman John Bundy wanted to join Kappa Upsilon Chi, a Christian fraternity on campus. But he was denied admission because he is Mormon. "They did all the things fraternities do, but they're centered around Christ," he said. "I was really interested in the student organization because they did retreats and services in the community." Mark Nelson, president of the UNM chapter of Kappa Upsilon Chi, said Bundy's faith doesn't fit with the fraternity's members. (Read full article here.)

Thank you, Kappa Upsilon Chi, for the reminder of how divisive and petty a religion can make ordinary people. Your Jesus and the Mormon Jesus need to get together and read The Sneetches.

2008-09-08T23:19:00.000-06:00

What is really in the Book of Mormon? —Jadhu

I was able to read the first few pages of the book until i stopped. I found it in our school library. I just want to know what are really the teachings inside this Book of Mormon, because when I was already reading the First Book of Nephi, i, honestly, am getting ...somewhat bored..... sorry.... i don't mean to offend. I understood the Bible better than this book. In the book of Nephi, the first verses were just about Nephi. I don't need to know this Nephi. There were too many verses in the beginning concerning about Nephi. So, i closed the book then just read another book... I just need to know what the Book of Mormon is all about, it's teachings(please give examples, like verses)............

That's pretty funny. So you didn't like reading Nephi talk about himself, huh? I don't have anything to add, just thought your viewpoint was refreshing. :)

Rae wrote: "Even if you are not reading it for the spiritual aspect (though it is hard to read it and not get that), it is a good historical story."

Huh ... what? No. There's nothing historical about it, unless you hold a spiritual belief in it to begin with. Maybe you just meant to say it's a good story? Sure, I'd agree with that, in parts at least. But not appropriate for small children, although you could say the same about the Old Testament.

2008-09-04T13:13:00.000-06:00

An Ultimate Statement of Irony? —Plato

After having read and been thoroughly disgusted by the Twilight Saga, I have found the main idea to be quite ironic. It is a series about two people who have found their first and only love for all of eternity. And the writer is Mormon. Has anyone else noticed this?

Are you referring to polygamy? I'm an ex-Mormon myself and not out to convert you, but you seriously need to look at the LDS church's website (try mormon.org) and get a feel for what modern-day Mormonism is all about. They are not polygamists.

Plato wrote: "I'm not saying Mormons are polygamists today, but there were definitely cases of polygamy in the past."

True enough, but not in Stephenie's past. :)

2008-09-01T14:47:00.000-06:00

Are there many BYU fans that aren't Mormon? —jacob e

My BIL is an ex-Mormon from Utah County and still attended BYU football games "religiously" when he lived in town. I'm also an ex-Mormon and even a USU alumnus but still think of BYU as my team. Religion is one thing, but football? C'mon, what kind of person turns their back on their team?

2008-09-01T14:23:00.000-06:00

Why does the mormon church not let former mormons get their records off? —Tinkerbelle2007

I have sent three letters to the mormon church one to the bishop and two to the church office building why the big run around

There is at least supposed to be a smooth process in place now for name removal, described in detail at the site http://mormonnomore.com/

But in your case it sounds like you followed the process and are still having trouble. Sometimes bishops don't know what to do with the letter or they sit on it and don't pass it on to the stake president. Whatever the reason, a phone call to Greg Dodge (801-240-2053) in Member Records will usually get things moving.

Anna wrote: "They refuse to acknowledge when you leave because they don't want to lose numbers on the membership rolls. Yes, it's a cheat, but that's the way it is. Just ignore it. If you have informed them by letter (registered is best), go on and live your life like they never existed. That's what I did."

Actually you really should be able to get this done nowadays through the process mentioned. The Mormon church was sued in 1985 for not honoring a resignation letter, which is the only reason they accommodate these requests.

You may be right though, anna, about not wanting to lose numbers on the membership rolls. The ex-Mormon community tries every year to make sense of the membership counts given in General Conference, and they don't make any sense. It appears that not only are inactive members being counted, but so are myriad ex-members and deceased members.

Is it a conspiracy? Probably not, but somewhere along the way they apparently decided to deal with ex-members and lost members a particular way, and the numbers have since spiraled out of control. Correcting the problem now would be embarrassing, so I don't expect an announcement anytime soon.

2008-08-31T22:41:00.000-06:00

Richard Dawkins on Mormonism. —Cambridge

Richard Dawkins on Mormonism:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVI3QcCu8t0

"The Mormon religion is so obviously fake ... I mean, nothing could be more obvious than that man was a fake and a charlatan and a liar ... this mountebank who wrote a bogus book, The Book of Mormon, and though he was writing in the nineteenth century chose to write it in seventeenth century English. I mean, why don't people see through that? I can't understand it."

Yeah, that's kind of funny, in retrospect. But I'm sure Dawkins does understand it, despite his flippant little aside here. Is it "obvious" that the Mormon church is bogus? Sure it is, unless you're already a part of it or emotionally attached to it when you begin your investigation. That's a long way of saying I disagree with Dr. Dawkins on this point, but I'm guessing it's not a strongly held opinion on his part and was said more for laughs.

2008-08-22T13:02:00.000-06:00

LDS & Food Storage/ Emergency kits?? —zangmo315

I have an employee that keeps talking about her church being very involved in emergency food storage & having 72 hour emergency packs-- I asked her why the church was so into this & she said it was just "being prepared in case of a disaster"... ok fine- but why is the church making sure everyone has it? I asked her if it was because we were nearing the "end" and she said no... was she just protecting her beliefs (I was unaware the LDS were into end time prophecy-- are they are are they not??) or is it just a "community service" thing they are into?
She's been talking about it a lot the last few weeks- so I would like to know. She's usually very open about discussing her religion w/ me, but this just seems odd to me.

When originally founded the LDS church was very much a Millennialist group like others of its time. The third prophet after Joseph Smith was Wilford Woodruff, whose writings are filled with visions of the end times and blessings to others that they would see the return of Christ. Of course much of that has died down now since Jesus remains a no show, unless he really was the guy who kidnapped Elizabeth Smart?

But I don't think you're far off in your supposition, zangmo. I think Mormons generally justify their food storage in practical terms, but see it as a protection for the days leading up to the Second Coming. You can see the shift toward practicality in many of the other answers to this question:

"They came in handy ..." "It's smart to have food in case there is no food ..." "It's just a smart thing to do." "Its about being self reliant" "It's about being prepared for disaster, job loss, etc." "It's good general advice."

Look, I'm a financial planner. In all my college work, all may CFP® courses, and all my years in the industry I've never heard the subject of food storage brought up. It may be harmless—except in terms of time, money, and storage space—but in almost every emergency what a family needs is money, not rolled oats. I would venture that for every faith-promoting story of food storage saving the day, dozens more have had theirs go to waste. And even for those who had to use it, they'd have been better off putting that savings in an interest-earning account. This food storage thing has been very expensive advice for the general membership.

2008-08-20T23:50:00.000-06:00

What happens when you die? —Mormon Alumni

I grew up mormon so i know their perspective of the afterlife. I want to hear what others believe

I've been to funerals, I've seen the deceased lying there. I'm pretty sure that's the end of an individual's existence as a sentient being. Sorry.

Don't get me wrong, I think immortality sounds pretty nice, but you have every reason to be cynical when religions promise blessings after death for adherence now. I do think it's an important question to ask, and I think people should consider and deal with the fact of their own mortality. But don't let it make you crazy. After all, you don't worry about the timeless millennia that passed before you ever came on the scene, right?

And if it helps, people do live on in some ways. Your identity, or other people's perception of you, doesn't disappear with death. The good you've done for others continues; even your genes may continue if you have children. If the thought of death haunts you, try thinking beyond yourself and try to expand your definition of identity. You're a part of a family, a country, a world, even a part of life. In the scheme of things, your death is just a date on a government record. Ob-La-Di, Ob-La-Da.

Don't hand over the one life you have to religious dogma for the false hope of life after death.